Evidence of meeting #23 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Hamilton Mountain, Lib.
Thank you very much.
I will use my remaining minute to ask—
4:10 p.m.
Hamilton Mountain, Lib.
Okay.
Madame Paré, you said something to the effect that we have such a strong cultural sector in Quebec and in Canada right now because we have had a Broadcasting Act up until now. What do you see for the future? Should we not have a revived and renewed Broadcasting Act if Bill C-11 is passed in the House? What do you see for our future?
4:10 p.m.
Director, Institutional Affairs and Research, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
In that sad future, we see francophone Canadian music—
4:10 p.m.
Director, Institutional Affairs and Research, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
—that is completely marginalized and is struggling to reach its public, while the public is telling us that they want to continue to discover that music.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Madame Desrochers.
I will now go to Martin Champoux for the Bloc for two and a half minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I will continue in the same vein with Mrs. Paré and Mrs. Desrochers.
Since the beginning of this meeting, we have been talking about the benefits of the development of music by Quebec radios, among others, and about how much that has contributed to the development of artists in Quebec, to their financial health, as well as to their flight toward careers they could not even imagine in the beginning.
We are clearly slowly moving toward the digital world, and we can agree on that. We can continue to operate with a hybrid model for a number of years—which is what I want—but, eventually, a larger portion of the cultural content we consume will be online. That portion will continue to grow.
Are you certain that these regulations will continue to contribute to the development of new digital artists, as was the case for recording artists, for instance?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Institutional Affairs and Research, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
There is never a magic solution to resolve all the issues we can have in the music industry. However, we are certain that this would be a key element to empower our music.
According to the results of the survey we conducted, those who are the least supportive of a piece of legislation like the one currently being implemented in Canada are young people—even though they are still important and account for more than 50%. Young people are the most likely to use those services, and we are already seeing the immediate impact of that. When people have their music suggested to them less, they understand less how much they may like it. They may not know how much that music can speak to them and they are less supportive of regulations. We are already seeing the broken impacts of the vicious cycle. So it is really—
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
In contrast, as the traditional radio model is giving way—as slowly as possible, I hope—to online broadcasting platforms, can it be presumed that, without regulations imposing discoverability objectives, we may see interest in Quebec, francophone and Canadian content drop?
I assume that the answer is plain and simple.
4:15 p.m.
Director, Institutional Affairs and Research, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
The answer is plain and simple, and it is yes. We have seen this during the pandemic: the less we are exposed to our music, the less we consume it. We have noted that especially when it comes to streaming music during the pandemic. As there were no shows being performed, our streaming music was significantly reduced, while more people were listening to streaming music. As our music was less present on the territory, people thought less about listening to it.
That is all part of cycles, which are not vicious, but virtuous, that feed this system. That is why each measure is important.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Ms. Desrochers.
We now have Peter Julian for two and a half minutes.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank all of the witnesses for coming forward today. They have given us compelling testimony that is going to be useful as we look at the bill, particularly at the amendment stage of Bill C-11.
I haven't asked a question yet of Mr. Hatfield and would like to go to him.
First off, my question would be this. Are you concerned about the testimony we've heard today from OUTtv about how they were excluded from a number of streaming platforms and fear that, should there not be measures in place to counter it, other streaming platforms coming to Canada may do the same thing? That's my first question.
Secondly, I thank OpenMedia for its campaign against discrimination in algorithms. We know that there are problems beyond that and that Senator Ed Markey, among others in the United States, has tabled a bill for algorithm transparency because that is, of course, a concern in some sectors. The campaign in the United States “Stop Hate for Profit” also takes aim on algorithms, as you're aware.
I wanted to ask you those two questions. The first is on your concern about exclusion by the streaming platforms. The second is on the issue of algorithm transparency.
4:15 p.m.
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
Those are two interesting questions. I'm not familiar with the specifics of OUTtv's case, so I should review that more in the future.
Platforms don't have a must-carry obligation for anyone's content, and we don't think they should. That said, it's important that it be easy for people to participate in a variety of different platforms, and different platforms may choose to carry or not carry different things. We do get concerned any time people seem to be locked in to a given system, whether that's a top-down CanCon system, or if people thought Netflix was the only game in town.
We certainly think that it's worthwhile for the government to look at anti-competitive practices and consider applying those to some of these companies.
In terms of your second question around algorithmic transparency, we very strongly support measures to make algorithms transparent to their users, researchers and journalists. One of the biggest problems we have with many online platforms is that it's so poorly understood what's actually happening on them. We've supported legislation around that in the States and would certainly support it here in Canada.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Peter, that's it. Thank you very much.
I now go to Mr. Nater again, for the Conservatives.
You have five minutes please, John.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Actually, Madam Chair, I believe it's going to be Mr. Uppal for this round.
4:20 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, John.
I'm going to continue with Mr. Hatfield.
Last week at this committee the CRTC commissioner basically admitted that UGC is in the scope of Bill C-11. He added that there should be a higher degree of trust in the CRTC as a regulator. What do you think about this, especially since the minister has assured Canadians that UGC is not covered under Bill C-11?
4:20 p.m.
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
Yes, I think perhaps the minister needs to discuss this with the CRTC and get his facts straight. As people know, it's been a long and frustrating conversation we've all had around Bill C-10 and C-11. I wish we could have clarified the fact that user content was in earlier. I think we all could have had a higher-quality discussion if we'd all been on the same page on that, as we now are.
In terms of telling us that we should just be trusting the history of the CRTC I think no, several times over. No, in the sense that our recent organizational experience with the CRTC has not been that we can trust them to always have the public's interest at heart. People who follow our access campaigns will know that we have a lot of concerns about who the CRTC is listening to when it comes to getting affordable Internet to Canadians and whether it's really their top priority to do that.
Certainly just as a matter of legislation, how do we go about justifying legislation as just “trust the regulator” and just trust that it will work out? That's a very poor standpoint for us to be setting out here. We think that it is incumbent on you as MPs to do better than that and to give more specific restrictions and clarifications to the CRTC as they move forward with anything here.
4:20 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
Thank you.
Also, can you elaborate further on how Bill C-11 will have a detrimental effect on Canadian consumers' ability to view content that they want to view online?
4:20 p.m.
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
Sure. The devil's really in the details here. The more actively the CRTC pursues forcing officially designated Canadian content into our feeds, I think the more detrimental an impact that could have on people.
The vast majority of the things that many people search for online or have in their feeds there is not a lot of Canadian content for, nor necessarily should there be. We are participating in a culture now where a lot of our experience on the Internet is transnational. Unless you really deeply balkanize Canadians and shut them off from those opportunities and really take issue, frankly, with their choices, we can't stop that.
What you might see is that, if I'm searching for a particular genre of music or a very practical thing on a search engine and then get a bunch of the closest things that the search engine could find in good faith based off of the CRTC's regulations, it would be trying to find something appropriate amongst that quite narrow window, currently, of officially recognized Canadian content and be finding quite irrelevant results or unwanted results to provide to Canadians.
4:20 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
What about smaller digital first creators or non-traditional artists? How does it affect them?
4:20 p.m.
Campaigns Director, OpenMedia
Yes, like I said earlier, the immediate concern is their being regulated while not having any of the financial benefits. It's been said that, yes, technically they can apply for some of this funding, but their business models were not considered when the previous structure for defining CanCon was designed. Hopefully it will be, as that's updated, but we have seen no sign of how that's going to be updated yet.
The single biggest concern that could affect them is if other countries do similar things to us. Many of them could lose the majority of their audience, actually, by being down-ranked in the feeds of other countries in the same way that Canada is seeking to down-rank the content of creators that are not officially recognized in Canada.
4:20 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
You mentioned smaller producers being able to apply for potential funding. Do you have any experience in what a YouTube process would be like for a small producer to be able to get funding, versus government applications? I talk to organizations all the time in my office that are having a very difficult time getting through any type of government application. They compare it to a private sector application and say it doesn't compare at all. It's so much harder. There's so much more paperwork to do.