Canadian Heritage Committee on May 31st, 2022

[Ian Scott]

No, I have not.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Okay.

Where do you see this bill...? You're leaving, and the timing isn't good, if you don't mind me saying. You're leaving. You had a five-year agreement. You're gone in September, and they're already advertising for your job.

[Ian Scott]

It does take some time to find a suitably qualified person.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Tell me who's qualified for this job.

[Ian Scott]

I think that's in the hands of others, but I would identify some of perhaps the challenges that lay ahead for the commission. At least with respect to the chair position in particular, I think the ability to manage change is important, and I think leadership and an ability to try to build consensus among members are two of the key critical skills that a new chair would require.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I mentioned that because the old broadcasting has changed. When I look at the head of the CRTC—and it's very difficult right now with the Internet and everything going on with Bill C-11 and then Bill C-18, which I talked to you about the last time, on May 24—I don't know what that person looks like. Do you or anyone in your department make any recommendations to the minister?

This new chair of the CRTC will be visionary. It's not that you aren't, but this one—if you don't mind my saying—will have to have a little more on the plate to deal with the Internet situation and YouTube and all that we've been talking about here for the last six months. It will be a difficult position to fill.

[Ian Scott]

To answer quickly, I have not been asked for my advice. It's a short answer. You are correct. That's what I mean when I talk about “change management”, but I would remind you that there is an expert staff and eight other commissioners who will be involved in any future decisions.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

[Ian Scott]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Scott.

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

The next one for the Liberals is Chris Bittle.

Chris, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Scott, to clarify comments from a few weeks ago at committee, you said that proposed section 4.2 would give the CRTC the power to regulate user-generated content. What did you mean by the term “regulate”?

[Ian Scott]

Thank you, and obviously this is a significant discussion today.

Let me take one step back and, hopefully, help clarify. I have legal counsel with me from the commission today, and I will ask her to add to this in a moment.

First, let's be clear. Proposed section 2(2.1) of the act is very clear. Basically, I'm going to paraphrase and say that it simply states that users are not subject to the act—period. It's very clear. Proposed section 4.2 allows the CRTC to prescribe by regulation user-uploaded content subject to very explicit criteria. That is also in the act. That's a simple explanation.

If I may, I'm going to turn to Madam Frenette, because she will add what we still can't do.

Would you, please?

[Rachelle Frenette, General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission]

Yes, of course.

As the chairman explained, user-uploaded content can be the subject of some authority by the commission, but contrary to what many have suggested, the commission's powers in relation to social media platforms and user-uploaded content are actually quite narrow. For example, rules on the proportion of Canadian programs, French-language programming and programs devoted to specific genres cannot be imposed on user-uploaded content. The CRTC is also prohibited from imposing any rules regarding standards of programs on user-uploaded content.

The way in which the commission actually exercises its powers vis-à-vis user-uploaded content is quite narrow.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

Has the CRTC ever regulated actual broadcast content—what is said or what is seen—rather than just its distribution?

[Ian Scott]

No. We obviously attempt to ensure that the objectives of the Broadcasting Act are met. We don't regulate individuals. We regulate broadcasting undertakings, and they abide by a regulatory framework that we establish. We don't dictate content, neither what is broadcast nor what is watched, obviously, by Canadians.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Can you then quickly respond to what some of our critics said—that you will control what Canadians see or hear online and censor unacceptable views online?

[Ian Scott]

We will not.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

In Bill C-11, the concept of programming control is key for proposed subsection 2(2.2). Social media services do not “exercise programming control” over content uploaded by everyday users and creators. Proposed subsection 9.1(6) goes on to exclude powers that do not make sense in this context, such as the proportion of French-language programs. Proposed paragraph 10(1)(c) says the CRTC cannot make standards about these programs. This means content uploaded by everyday users and creators could not be regulated for things like obscenity, portrayal of violence or any other issue relating to the content itself. Is that fair to say?

[Ian Scott]

I believe so.

Madam Frenette, do you have anything to add? I think that's correct.

[Rachelle Frenette]

Thank you for your question. I think that perfectly encapsulates the limits of the CRTC's powers with respect to user-uploaded content.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

As a follow-up, does this mean that the CRTC could not actually regulate the content itself—regulating what is depicted, said, expressed—when we are talking about user-generated content?

[Rachelle Frenette]

That's correct.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Madam Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes and five seconds, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Wow. Excellent.