Canadian Heritage Committee on June 6th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Yes, Mr. Bittle, on a point of order.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I hear Ms. Thomas saying that she wants a conversation, but she is repeatedly interrupting the minister. Again, for the translators, perhaps we should ask the question and let the minister answer and not talk over him.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

We have about 20 seconds left.

Ms. Thomas, do you want to take the last 20 seconds?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I was just hoping that Mr. Rodriguez could give me a dollar figure.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Is that the same question? I think it is, right?

There will also be consultations—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

What is that dollar figure in order to determine whether it is commercial content and therefore captured by this bill?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Once the CRTC takes the three criteria to establish regulations, there will also be consultations, so all of the discussions will happen—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I recognize that. One of those criteria is a monetary amount.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

That's the five minutes for that round.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No answer.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Ms. Hepfner, you have five minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Ripley, for being with us today with your testimony. We really appreciate your time in answering these questions.

You touched on this point a little bit already through your testimony, but I think it bears elaboration. I'd like to talk about what happens after the passage of Bill C-11. Throughout this study, we've heard lots of speculation about what regulation might look like, including members of this committee telling digital first creators that they will be taxed. We know that's not true.

We had a few witnesses mention that a public open process will be conducted. I think that all the members of this committee would benefit from a thorough explanation of this process. There still seems to be confusion.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you could tell us what exactly will happen after royal assent of Bill C-11.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you. That's a very important question.

This is one of the steps. Then, of course, we're going back to the House, the Senate...and then royal assent. Then we will provide the CRTC with policy direction, so guidelines and clear direction from the government. Then, the CRTC will consult.

Everyone who is interested will be able to participate. Of course, there will be tons of people from the cultural sector. I expect people from music, video and cinema—all of those—to participate in this.

After that, the CRTC will take into consideration the policy direction. They have to take into consideration the three criteria: the revenue, whether the content is found elsewhere and whether there's an identifying number. They will take all of that into consideration. They will consult and they will draft the regulations.

There will be an ongoing consultation, because this is so important for the cultural sector.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Just so I'm clear, after this bill goes through committee and all of the discussions and it goes to royal assent, there will be more consultation and more discussion with all the stakeholders, to make sure that the policy directive and the regulations are appropriate in doing what we want it to do.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You understand it very well, absolutely.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Perfect.

For my second question, I want to deal with a topic you have touched on as well today—social media. We know it's an incredible tool. It has changed our society over the past couple of decades. We've heard witnesses talk about how they are using social media to connect with international audiences. They're not just staying in Canada anymore. This is really important as well. They are sharing Canadian stories with the rest of the world.

We've also heard over and over again that these creators will not face any obligations as a result of Bill C-11. The opposition chooses to focus on Bill C-11 and the potential impact on social media, continuing to speculate wildly about what this bill will mean for Canadians' experience on these platforms.

Minister, you and your officials have repeated that social media is not the focus; that it's not what you're here to do. Bill C-11 will not have any impact on what Canadians say or do on social media. You said it here today again. There are a number of clauses in the bill that clearly state that fact. That being said, some social media platforms may be subject to obligations under Bill C-11, so I'm hoping that you can clarify this for the benefit of my colleagues. Why include social media at all?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The platforms are included, or the streamers, unless there is a specific platform that can play, in a way, a certain role of some of the streamers. It happens with YouTube—not for a lot of the stuff, just for some stuff that is commercial.

People post online every day. I'm sure a lot of us today have posted and will post again tonight and tomorrow. It's normal.

Can you imagine if we really wanted the CRTC to look at all of the videos and posts and said, “CRTC, you have to look at all of that”? First of all, CRTC has zero interest in that. Even if they wanted to do it, they would not have the resources. It would be impossible. It's not what is happening here. This is not what's happening in England, Australia or New Zealand—nowhere, right?

The only reason we want to determine what is commercial content is that it's part of the equation. That's part of the numbers that will be used to determine what will be the contribution of YouTube to Canadian content. That's it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

You have six seconds.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay.

Tell us quickly about the urgency of this legislation, Minister.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

There you go.

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner and Minister.

We now go to Mr. Champoux

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, let's change the subject. I would like to talk to you about the basic services provided under section 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act. The companies that provide these services find that they are at a loss when faced with the digital giants. We are all very proud of ICI Television and APTN, which are shining examples. Indeed, APTN is an example that has been copied in several countries around the world. There is also MétéoMédia, The Weather Network, etc.

In short, the companies that provide these programming services feel that, as the bill is currently drafted, they may find themselves at a disadvantage when it comes time to negotiate distribution agreements with online broadcasters. Their advertising revenues do not give them the financial means to sustain lengthy negotiations. They also find that they do not have particularly extensive means to challenge a decision before the CRTC, a process that would be very slow.

On the one hand, are you willing to guarantee negotiating terms to these companies, which provide specific programming services?

On the other hand, would you also be prepared to offer them means to challenge the outcome if the results of the negotiations turn out to be to their great disadvantage?

Are you aware of all this?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, I am aware of that, Mr. Champoux. You are right to raise it, because it is very important.

You are right that several of these channels play a very important role, including APTN, which gives a strong voice to indigenous people. I'm also thinking of CPAC and others. There are some very serious challenges. At the moment, this exists for Canadian companies. What you are proposing is to impose obligations on foreign online broadcasting companies. Now our American colleagues have made it very clear that this could be a big problem.

So, we are considering different possibilities, including using the money that will be generated by Bill C‑11 to help these companies. Indeed, we estimate that this legislation will generate close to $1 billion a year. I think we need to be creative and find solutions outside of the bill to give them a hand.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You just said that the Americans...

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Mr. Champoux, I am sorry, but I have to give the floor to Mr. Julian for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I would like to come back to this question.

You said that this will generate $1 billion a year in revenue.