Evidence of meeting #18 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:10 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you both again for being here.
I don't have lots of questions left, but I just wondered if both of you could tell me whether either of your organizations has done a post-mortem on these emergency provisions, on their effectiveness, and your respective effectiveness in implementing them. If so, what was the outcome?
9:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
There's been nothing formal that I would give such a formal name as “post-mortem” to. Again, the numbers were so small as to not merit such a study. Ten accounts across a $300-billion sector is not statistically significant.
To the extent that we have ideas and recommendations, I have already outlined them. Communication is key. The targeted nature of these measures could have and should have been communicated more clearly and earlier.
9:15 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
I guess part of my point was that from your own experience in your feedback to your own credit unions, is there anything else you would add?
9:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
As has been repeated a few times here this evening, I would add that more guidance, if not explicit lists, be provided by the government, as opposed to granting individual FIs, financial institutions, the latitude to determine whether or not activity reaches a threshold that merits account freezing.
9:15 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
No formal...but we have actively participated in hearings such as this. We also participated with the public commission's review to identify, obviously, the importance of communication and ensuring that the public is not alarmed and that when something is being exercised in such a narrow fashion, to make it clear.
Throughout this process, we did everything we could to make sure that our clients...even asking governments to reinforce the very narrow scope in which this was being applied.
By comparison with my colleague, we had 180 accounts. We have multi-million numbers of clients.
November 17th, 2022 / 9:15 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
That's great.
That's all I have.
I'll remind you, Mr. Chair, I have a motion before the evening finishes. I can do that at the end, if that's okay.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
9:15 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
I think I've spoken to every group about this. I forgot to actually table it last week.
It's a motion asking that an ISG senator be designated to be here when I'm unable to be here. There will be few occasions, but I want to just be able to have somebody sit in. It's a unique position of the differences between the rules of the Senate and the rules of the House.
I just ask for that concurrence.
9:15 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
I think we would seek unanimous consent on that.
(Motion agreed to)
Let it be shown that it was unanimous.
I have to say, for the record, we've probably had more unanimous consent today than we've had in any other meeting. Well done.
We will now move to Senator Harder.
Senator Harder, you have five minutes. The floor is yours.
9:15 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Thank you, Chair.
I thought that Senator Boniface was speaking for me.
Let me, again, thank the witnesses.
What's left on the lessons learned is just an open question to the witnesses. At the end of the day, what lessons would they wish us to be seized with? Also, with the perspective of time, what conclusions have they drawn with respect to the utility of freezing assets in such circumstances as we faced?
Ms. Mason, go ahead.
9:15 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
I would start by recognizing the issues that we identified right up front. To freeze an account is significant. If that measure is to be taken, then consideration should be had with respect to appropriate exceptions, whether it's humanitarian, child care, you name it.
We were asked at the beginning of this meeting, why didn't you challenge this legally? I think the real question is that you have a piece of legislation that actually provides this power to the government. I think you have to start with first principles of whether that power should be provided. I'm not the one to determine that. You have to start with the fact that this legislation exists. It has an oversight power. Is that sufficient?
Those are things I think that this committee and policy-makers should be considering.
9:20 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
To add to it, from our previous set of questions you referenced the sanctions regime and lessons learned from it that could be transferred. I wonder if you could give some additional thought and perhaps reflect a bit in writing on what it is that we could incorporate in our consideration of recommendations.
9:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
Yes, I would.
On the sanctions, as we mentioned, it's that there be a specific list, a process for determining how people are put on that list, and opportunities and processes for people coming off that list that are formalized, understood and prescribed.
9:20 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
It's exceptions or guidance on certain elements such as child support and the like?
9:20 p.m.
General Counsel and Vice-President, Canadian Bankers Association
Sure.
Also, if someone is on a list and wants to be removed from a list, that there's an actual process for applying to do that.
9:20 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
Yes, with the Governor in Council.
Mr. Hatch, go ahead.
9:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
I agree with everything my colleague has said, and a lot of it doesn't bear repeating because we've said it many times, but, again, when the federal government is enacting any kind of policy through the financial system such as this, it should consider and consult the entirety of the financial system, be they the large D-SIBs, the federally regulated banks that everybody is familiar with, the smaller banks that fewer people are familiar with and the provincially regulated credit unions.
That would be my number one message and number one recommendation. It's a battle that we continue to fight, and this was just the most recent manifestation of the tendency that exists in Ottawa and at the federal government level to view the financial system as six institutions.
As to your broader question, respectfully, Senator, I don't think it's my job to determine whether or not it was right or wrong to pull this lever. It's up to this committee, it's up to legislators, it's up to members of Parliament, senators and ultimately the government, but it is a law that exists, it is a power that the government does have. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't see it as my job to answer that question, to be candid.
9:20 p.m.
Senator, Ontario, PSG
I have one last question.
Does your clientele have much experience with the sanctions regime?
9:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
Yes.
9:20 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations, Canadian Credit Union Association
Absolutely, yes.
9:20 p.m.
Senator, Nunavut, CSG
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would cede my time to Mr. Motz.