Evidence of meeting #7 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:40 p.m.
Bloc
The Joint Chair Bloc Rhéal Fortin
You said earlier that you couldn't take action because you didn't have tow trucks. That's what you said in your remarks.
7:40 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
In Coutts, Alberta, that's exactly right. We had an enforcement plan. We were ready to go in; we had tow trucks available. When we started the enforcement the next day, the tow trucks had been secured. When we started to enforce the next day, the tow trucks would not co-operate, so we had to readjust our plan.
7:40 p.m.
Bloc
The Joint Chair Bloc Rhéal Fortin
Yes, but you readjusted your plan there. However, here, in Ottawa, in front of Canada's Parliament, there were municipal and provincial police and the RCMP. Everyone was involved in the police operation. It was so serious that the Prime Minister decided to invoke the Emergencies Act for the first time in 50 years.
I am convinced that the police were able to act. I don't want to blame you, but according to your comments, you couldn't do anything. You were unable to end the protest in front of Parliament, to tow the trucks and to remove a hot tub and barbecues. I have trouble believing that.
You did it, once the emergency was declared. That emergency lasted a week.
Why were you unable to resolve the problem without the Emergencies Act?
It's very concerning, Ms. Lucki.
7:40 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Well, the Emergencies Act provided authorities to serve as both deterrents and to reduce the footprint so that we could safely do enforcement action. There were a massive number of people in the location in Ottawa. It's never safe when you're at the maximum number of people. As the people—
7:40 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Commissioner Lucki, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to cut you off. The time is up.
We'll go to Mr. Green.
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Thank you.
I'm going to go back to Mr. Vigneault.
Mr. Vigneault, as you know, under the Emergencies Act, we need to satisfy that there was a national emergency. I feel that at the heart of this committee what we're trying to get to is the nature of the threat and whether or not this could not have been effectively dealt with under any other law in Canada. That seems to be, for me, the foundation from which we're exploring in this committee.
I'll ask you again, sir, did CSIS assess the threat for security in relation to paragraph 2(d) of the CSIS Act? I'll even give it to you: You don't have to provide details. Did you see the MOU and the current situation as a threat as defined in your act?
7:45 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you, Mr. Green.
I know you're looking for some level of precision that, unfortunately, I cannot provide you in this context. We have provided advice to the government.
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
When you say “this context”, sir, if we go in camera....
Madam Chair, I'll say this through you.
Sir, if you're acknowledging that you're not going to answer my question, I'll accept that, but I want to know, if we were going to go in camera, given the nature of this committee and the fact we've all been sworn in.... We've identified that we at the committee are a coordinating authority with the courts, i.e. as important as a quasi-judicial committee for the purpose of this review, the only one that's parliamentary. If, in a future meeting, we go in camera, at that time would you be prepared to live up to your duty of candour and provide the most basic information? Otherwise, sir, having you present at committee without answering that most basic question seems to me to be a bit of a futile exercise.
7:45 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Green, you asked me to respect my duty of candour. I told you that I will absolutely respect that. I also have to respect the law of the land that prevents me from answering with classified information in a public setting.
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Okay. In camera, I've heard now, we'll invite you back for a future meeting and hopefully get to the heart of this matter.
I do in fact think that this was unique in nature. I do feel that it was because of the failure of policing, Madam Chair, the utmost failure of policing.
I'm going to take my questions back to Commissioner Lucki, recognizing that throughout the events that led to the declaration there have been many concerns about the conduct of police officers across the country, which include officers who were donating money, publicly announcing their support and in fact taking part in the convey—which to me was part of the uniqueness of this situation. It was not the tow trucks but the collusion, aiding and abetting by our security apparatus, including the police.
For example, a Durham Regional Police constable who publicly professed support for the convoy was charged with discreditable conduct and other offences under the PSA. Two officers from Edmonton were suspended without pay for participating in the rally in support of the convoy at Coutts. Ottawa confirmed that it was investigating officers who allegedly supported the convoy. This included six officers whose names appeared on a leaked list of donors on the crowdsourcing platform GiveSendGo.
In an unprecedented way, we watched police hand in hand with protesters here in Ottawa. We watched handshakes and hugs in Coutts after weapons were found. Has the RCMP also conducted investigations regarding the conduct of their officers during these events?
Commissioner Lucki.
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Thank you for that question.
Most of the people who were actually found to be in misconduct were on leave without pay. I have to say that public trust is obviously essential for the RCMP to really effectively serve and protect our—
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Will there be discipline when they come back, or is that their discipline?
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, absolutely not. Anytime—
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
What disciplinary actions will be taken towards the RCMP officers resulting in misconduct during the convoy?
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Anytime there are allegations of misconduct, an investigation is done in regard to contraventions of the code of conduct, which we take very seriously. We're committed to handling all of the conduct issues in a responsible—
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Commissioner, what security risk does it pose that individuals from the RCMP and the military with experience and training were involved in the logistics of the convoy?
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
In terms of the ones we were aware of, first of all one who was no longer in the RCMP, who was part—
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
Sure, but they had the training. It was a sniper, in fact, on the Prime Minister's detail.
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
The person was no longer within the employ of the RCMP at the time they assisted the convoy.
7:45 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
What risk do these individuals pose, given the knowledge they have?
Is this unique in nature? Have you ever seen police officers and military participating in civic disorder like this before?
7:45 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Personally I have not.
Having information is not a problem; it's how the information is used. If the information is used for good, then it's not a problem, obviously. If it isn't, then it could pose a problem.
7:50 p.m.
NDP
The Joint Chair NDP Matthew Green
That's particularly true when you're talking about dropping bullets on people's heads. Is that correct?
7:50 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface
Thank you very much.
My question goes to Commissioner Lucki.
I want to ask you to give a picture.... Perhaps Deputy Commissioner Duheme is in a better position to do that, or whoever.
We keep hearing about the convoy on Wellington Street. In fact, the convoy had an impact far beyond Wellington Street in the city of Ottawa. I'm interested in getting a better picture for members of the public on the type of space that was occupied in streets. I don't know if you have it by kilometres or so on? Can you give me some context for people who aren't familiar with the area in Ottawa?