Declaration of Emergency Committee on May 10th, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

When we look at a national security threat, we look at it in regard to criminal.... Of course, there are a number of organizations with a mandate in this area, such as CSIS. But although most of the people participating in Ottawa protests were motivated by a desire to end that COVID-related type of mandate, we assessed that some of the ideologically motivated extremists were probably present and attempting, really, to leverage the protest and its high profile for their own purposes. And we know that—

[Vernon White]

But the Department of Justice website actually identifies the RCMP as the law enforcement agency responsible for national security in Canada. Did you consider it a national security threat, and if you did, did you express that to the Minister of Public Safety? If so, was there any consideration for the RCMP taking over the event and the operation that was occurring in downtown Ottawa as a result of that threat?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No, because we aren't the police of jurisdiction, and if the Ottawa Police Service needed additional resources, they were to go to the Ontario Provincial Police, as per Ontario's Policing Act.

[Vernon White]

I understand that, but I think you know that in my previous role, I used hundreds of RCMP officers many times. In fact, I remember swearing them in in the basement of our building. And I certainly didn't always go to the OPP—although the commissioner who's sitting at the front here, I'm sure, often gave me resources when they were asked.

I recognize that, but I also saw thousands of police officers from every agency in Canada operating well before the invocation of the Emergencies Act. So I can't imagine that you would not have offered resources to the Ottawa Police Service in their job in relation to the occupation.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely. For any request of resources they made, we fulfilled those requests.

[Vernon White]

Can you advise me about whether or not you could have removed the occupation without the invocation of the Emergencies Act, in Ottawa?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

What I can—

[Vernon White]

I don't want to hear what happened as a result, though, because I only have about 30 seconds left. Could you have removed them without the invocation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's really not up to me to speak to hypotheticals or speculate—

[Vernon White]

It wasn't hypothetical; it was real. You would have had a plan. Could you have removed that occupation without the Emergencies Act?

I'll go back to what Senator Harder said. If you could not have, then it was a failure of policing, which might mean that you needed to invoke the act, right?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

No. It's very speculative because we weren't the police of jurisdiction, so I don't have all of the intimate details of what was known and what wasn't known—

[Vernon White]

But there was a joint command centre prior to the invocation, right?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, absolutely. I can say that we did actually successfully conclude protests across the country without the invocation of the Emergencies Act, but it was a much different situation.

[Vernon White]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you, Senator White.

We'll now move to the second round, and I believe we're going to Mr. Brock this time.

Mr. Brock, you have five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your appearance today.

I have several questions, several themes and limited time, so I'm going to address an issue right up front to both Ms. Lucki and Mr. Vigneault.

I want to know whether or not any of your witnesses, yourselves or your assistants with you, are prepared to answer any questions regarding whether the legal threshold of the invocation of the act was met and whether in your belief the measures taken under the act were charter-compliant.

Is anyone prepared to answer those questions?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

From the RCMP perspective, we're not in a position to speak about the legal threshold. That wasn't part of our responsibilities.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay, and that would apply to....

Go ahead.

[David Vigneault]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

No, unfortunately, I would not be at liberty to provide any legal interpretation of this. Thank you.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay, secondary to that question, both of your departments have a legal division. Isn't that correct?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Right, and I understand that legal division is under the auspices, under the leadership of, the Department of Justice. Correct?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

So the legal advice that you opined on from my colleague Mr. Green—and I'll get to some more specifics in a moment—did that come from your internal legal departments, or did it come from the DOJ?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I don't know what advice you're referring to.