Evidence of meeting #6 for Economic Relationship between Canada and the United States in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ontario.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sonya Savage  Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta
Bronwyn Eyre  Minister of Energy and Resources, Government of Saskatchewan
Bill Walker  Associate Minister of Energy, Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines, Government of Ontario
Mike Bradley  Mayor, City of Sarnia
Andrew Pilat  General Manager, Sarnia Construction Association
Scott Archer  Business Agent, UA Local 663

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Welcome, members, to the sixth meeting of the Special Committee on the Economic Relationship between Canada and the United States.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the House on February 16, 2021, the special committee is meeting to discuss the economic relationship between Canada and the United States. As agreed, and in order to meet the timelines of the House, today will be the last meeting focusing on Line 5.

I'd like to take the opportunity to warmly greet our witnesses for our first panel: from the Government of Alberta, the Honourable Sonya Savage, Minister of Energy; from the Government of Saskatchewan, the Honourable Bronwyn Eyre, Minister of Energy and Resources; and from the Government of Ontario, Bill Walker, the associate minister of energy.

I'd really like to thank all three of you for joining us to today to help us better understand this issue.

I would like to invite the Honourable Sonya Savage to please give her opening remarks.

Ms. Savage, the floor is yours for five minutes.

3 p.m.

Sonya Savage Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the committee members for inviting me today to speak to you, along with my colleagues from Saskatchewan and Ontario, about Line 5.

This is a critical issue not only for Alberta but for all of Canada. To start with, I'm encouraged by the discussions that have been taking place in this committee here. I would like to acknowledge Minister O'Regan for the strong message that he delivered to the committee a few weeks ago that the continued operation of Line 5 is absolutely non-negotiable. On that, Alberta and the federal government agree.

I'm here today as Alberta's energy minister, a position I've served in since 2019, but I'm also very proud of my extensive experience in Alberta's oil and gas pipeline industry for 13 years. From both of these roles, I can attest to the fact that Canada's energy sector is resilient and innovative, and drives our economy. When it comes to responsible production and transportation of our natural resources, Canadians are more aligned than they are divided, and they've clearly seen this evident in this committee here.

As we continue to manage the devastating impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, it's more important now than ever that Alberta and the other provinces and other governments across Canada and the U.S. work together to support a robust, sustained North American economic recovery, and that has to include oil and gas.

Alberta's energy sector supports jobs on both sides of the border and plays a vital role in maintaining a reliable North American energy system. Our integrated Canadian energy industry has a long history of developing and implementing technology, having world-leading regulatory and environmental standards, and being a stable supplier to the United States. Enbridge's Line 5 in Michigan is an excellent example of that integrated system. Connecting the Enbridge main line at Superior, Wisconsin, Line 5 is a long-standing route to move Alberta light crude and natural gas liquids to refineries in Sarnia, and supplies home heating for thousands of families in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. A shutdown would have a devastating impact on these families.

My colleagues here today, I'm sure, are going to agree that the impacts of a shutdown would be devastating for their provinces. I can tell you it certainly would devastate Alberta. A shutdown would create a bottleneck in the Midwest, negatively impacting oil prices. It would limit the flow of up to 400,000 barrels a day of Alberta oil that would have to find alternate routes. Interrupted operation of the pipeline would also impact Alberta propane producers as Michigan would have to source a more expensive, alternate supply for propane from the U.S. gulf coast or through trucking and rail from Canada.

What is possibly most concerning to Alberta, as it should be for everyone here, is the dangerous precedent that a shutdown of a safely operating pipeline would pose for future infrastructure projects. In this regard, we would strongly encourage the federal government to protect Canada's interests by invoking rights under the 1977 transit pipeline treaty. Alberta will stand firmly behind Canada in using that treaty, and we encourage Canada to take a very strong position in the upcoming Line 5 legal proceedings by way of a Canadian amicus brief.

The U.S. states are by far Alberta's largest trading partner, and Alberta and Michigan enjoy a robust trading relationship that includes energy and plastics, wood, and machinery and agricultural products. Alberta and Michigan have a strong, healthy bilateral trade relationship worth as much as $9 billion annually in recent years. Trade in Alberta supports upwards of 45,000 Michigan jobs. That's part of the quarter of a million jobs in the state that are supported by Canada overall.

Michigan, the Michigan peninsula, Pennsylvania and Ohio are key suppliers of equipment, goods and services to the Alberta oil sands. We are good neighbours and strong business partners. Our integrated energy sector and critical trading relationships are important for jobs and economies on both sides of the border, and any actions to shut down Line 5 would threaten that relationship.

This is a fully regulated, fully maintained pipeline that will only be improved in years to come to ensure the ongoing safety of its operations. I believe that a reasonably sensible solution needs to be found to end this dispute.

Thank you, Chair and committee members, for your time. I look forward to your questions.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Thank you very much.

We will proceed to the Government of Saskatchewan, with the Honourable Bronwyn Eyre, for five minutes, please.

3:05 p.m.

Bronwyn Eyre Minister of Energy and Resources, Government of Saskatchewan

Thank you very much, good afternoon and bonjour, Mr. Chair and committee members. I'm pleased to join you today on behalf of the Government of Saskatchewan to speak on this important issue that has a crucial bearing, not only on Canadian energy security, but North American energy security.

Enbridge Line 5 is a bricks and mortar—in this case, welded steel—manifestation, a tangible symbol, of a traditionally strong relationship, a friendship, between the United States and Canada, one we must not jeopardize.

As we know, no single political issue in recent years has been as divisive, as charged, as pipelines because no single issue has become as dominant as climate change. But pipelines produce no CO2. They are a mere mode of transport, and yet they have become a symbol of the fight.

Project after project has been cancelled: northern gateway, which had substantial first nations support; energy east, which I'm convinced would have led to stronger national unity in Canada at a time when we needed it; and of course most recently Keystone XL, for the second time, this time by President Biden.

The more this happens, the more we cancel projects and prevent producers from getting oil to tidewater, to global markets, the more oil we have to import, including up the St. Lawrence River, from countries whose human rights records are dire. The more we'll also see strange, hyperexpensive concoctions such as the western Canadian oil that had to be transported via the Panama Canal last year just to get to a refinery on our own Atlantic east coast, the more we diminish our own energy independence.

While we wait in Saskatchewan and in the west for what we hope will be an in-service TMX pipeline someday, the only real pipeline egress for our producers is the Enbridge main line and indirectly, Enbridge Line 5, which connects to Canada from Lake Superior.

The main line, which emanates from Hardisty, Alberta, then goes cross-country and cross-border to Superior, Wisconsin, is the great spine, backbone—pick your metaphor—and the only major pipeline left for Saskatchewan oil producers. It transports 70% of our oil.

The Line 3 replacement project, I always like to point out, was accomplished—beautifully accomplished—before Bill C-69 even came along. It demonstrated that you could consult meaningfully with literally thousands of communities along the route, including first nations communities, and empower them and earn their trust, just because it made sense to do so.

But let's talk about Enbridge Line 5. I always like to use the reasonable-person-on-the-street test. If you told that person that Enbridge Line 5 and the portion that crosses the Mackinac Straits was built in 1953 to the highest engineering standards and has operated without any release incident since and that now, given heightened concerns that we all understand, Enbridge is going to spend $500 million to build a super-tunnel of reinforced concrete that would prevent the risk of an anchor strike, protect the aquatic environment and enable high-tech inspection and maintenance going forward, I think that person would say, “sounds good to me”.

If you mentioned that Line 5 helps to generate over half the propane used in Michigan, supplies regional refineries, powers the agriculture sector and heats homes, schools, hospitals and businesses, I think that person on the street, one who isn't blinded by an irrational hatred of pipelines, would say that sounded good too, especially when they learned the new propane proposal put forward in the Michigan propane security plan is woefully inadequate.

As for Ontario and Quebec, which Line 5 and then Line 9 feed into, those provinces will speak to the importance to them of this crucial line and what their own reasonable people on the street might have to say.

As provinces, we all hope diplomacy and mediation between the Canadian and U.S. governments will work on this one. But the transit treaty signed between Canada and the U.S. in 1977 sounds pretty definitive to me. It provides, “ government-to-government assurances on a reciprocal basis that pipelines carrying hydrocarbons owned by one country across the territory of the other will be free from interruptions in flow...."

I understand that we all want to make sure the environment is protected.

Unilaterally shutting down Line 5 strikes me as some sort of nightmare scenario dreamt up by Ayn Rand. Such a crucial means of keeping families working and warm, businesses and crucial sectors powered, and successful cross-border relationships thriving would simply be shut off.

Certainly we, in Saskatchewan, haven't always agreed with the Prime Minister's policies, most recently around the carbon tax. However, I believe that Governor Whitmer should examine how politically and ideologically akin she and the Prime Minister are, along with President Biden, even with those who spirited the green new deal.

I would ask her not to do this to her friends in Canada and her own Michiganders, to workers and their families, and to remember the strong trading relationship that Michigan has with, for one, Saskatchewan. That was worth $109 million in exports to Michigan last year from our province, and imports into Saskatchewan from beautiful Michigan of $137 million.

I would also ask her to keep in mind the powerful statistic that I reference a lot, speaking more globally: That if every oil- and gas-producing nation in the world extracted oil and gas the way that we do in Canada, global greenhouse gas emissions would instantly fall by one quarter.

Madam Governor, I would say we are good at this. Let's work together and not jeopardize a beautiful friendship over Enbridge Line 5.

Thank you.

3:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Thank you very much for those comments.

Our final opening statement of five minutes goes to the Government of Ontario and Mr. Walker.

Mr. Walker, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

3:15 p.m.

Bill Walker Associate Minister of Energy, Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines, Government of Ontario

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, Chair, vice-chairs and committee members. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to present today.

I am pleased to be here as Ontario's associate minister of energy to speak about the importance of the Enbridge Line 5 pipeline to the people of our province, as well as our businesses and industries, and to convey just how vital this piece of energy infrastructure is to the economic, environmental and energy security of not only Ontario but also our neighbours in Quebec, Alberta and the entire Great Lakes region. Pipelines are essential to our ability to move energy from where it is produced to where it is consumed. They help pay for vital services that we depend on, such as health care and education. They create good jobs that support families and communities.

Ontario supports the development of pipelines in our province and across Canada. In particular, Ontario supports the continued safe and responsible operation of Enbridge Line 5. We were profoundly disappointed with the Governor of Michigan's decision to shut down the line in the Straits of Mackinac. This light crude oil and natural gas liquids pipeline, with a capacity of 540,000 barrels per day, has operated safely since 1953. It is a critical piece of infrastructure for Ontario's refining and petrochemical sectors, essential to businesses and communities on both sides of the border. Ontario's four refineries ensure that Ontario, Quebec, Michigan, Ohio and the entire Great Lakes region are well supplied with essential products like home heating fuels, gasoline, diesel and jet fuel. Line 5 also supplies natural gas liquids to a Sarnia facility that processes them into propane.

Simply put, Line 5 is critical to our economic, environmental and energy security. Shutting it down would jeopardize Ontario's energy supply, an energy supply that our people rely on daily. Without Line 5, Ontario, Quebec, Michigan, Ohio and the entire Great Lakes region would face a 45% reduction in the pipeline supply of petroleum. Enbridge estimates a shortage of 14.7 million U.S. gallons a day of gasoline, diesel and jet fuel. Our country's largest airport hub, Pearson international airport, relies on jet fuel from refineries supplied by Line 5.

Propane supply to Ontario and Michigan could be drastically reduced, causing shortages of an important heating source for large portions of rural Ontario. The implications of a Line 5 shutdown would be dramatic, impacting the fuel needs of the agricultural sector, construction, manufacturing and many other industries.

Shutting down Line 5 would also have a devastating impact on jobs in Ontario, specifically in Sarnia and the surrounding region. Sarnia-Lambton is a major hub for fuel refineries and home to a highly specialized, highly skilled workforce. Without Line 5, an estimated 4,900 direct jobs and up to 23,000 more jobs in supporting industries would be at risk. That represents one third of all jobs in the area.

Moreover, it is important to remember that pipelines are the safest way to transport essential fuels across ecologically sensitive areas like the Great Lakes. Shutting down Line 5 would increase transport by rail, marine and truck, creating additional emissions and congestion, as well as vastly increase costs for business and consumers alike. The reality is that we need Line 5, especially as our province and country recover from the devastating economic impacts of COVID-19.

That's why our government is advocating to keep Line 5 operating and why we are working with all levels of government on a united team Canada approach to resolving this issue. Premier Doug Ford has met with Governor Whitmer, after writing to her previously, to underscore Ontario's concerns about the impact of losing Line 5. In February the Minister of Energy, Northern Development and Mines, Greg Rickford, and I, along with Sarnia-Lambton MPP Bob Bailey, wrote to the federal natural resources minister to express our concerns and to encourage him to advocate for the continued operation of Line 5 with the new U.S. administration.

Last month the Ontario legislature held a take-note debate on Line 5 and passed a motion in support of the continued operation of Line 5, with the support of both the government and the official opposition. Ontario government officials continue to work with their colleagues at Natural Resources Canada and the energy ministries in Quebec, Alberta and Saskatchewan to ensure that we are all aligned on the critical importance of Line 5 to Canada's fuel supply and economy.

I understand that federal government officials have been reaching out to their U.S. counterparts. We appreciate that federal ministers have also made supportive statements about Line 5 to the U.S. administration. While we continue to encourage Michigan and Enbridge to use the ongoing mediation process to settle their dispute, we would also urge the federal government to keep all options on the table. This could include using the provisions of the 1977 treaty between Canada and the U.S. intended to protect cross-border pipelines from regional, state or local authorities interfering with or interrupting an existing pipeline network.

It's also important that the federal government work with the provinces to participate in the current U.S. federal court proceedings to ensure that Canada's interests are represented.

This could include filing an amicus brief in court expressing the government’s support for keeping the pipeline in operation.

Ontario looks forward to continuing to work with the federal government, Enbridge and Michigan to keep the pipeline operating in accordance with the highest health and safety standards. It is our sincere hope that this issue will be resolved positively and that we'll be able to focus our efforts on economic recovery.

Thank you for your time today and for your efforts to find a solution to this issue. I look forward to any questions you may have.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Thank you very much, Mr. Walker.

I really applaud all the witnesses. You were bang on time. I really appreciate that.

Now we will proceed to questions. For the first six minutes we have Mr. Hoback.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here this afternoon on such a very important topic, not only for Canada but for the U.S. as well.

Ms. Bronwyn Eyre, maybe I'll start off with you. You made a comment at the very end that, if the world adopted our practices, we'd see emissions drop by 25%. How do we get that message across to fellow Canadians and Americans on just how good we are at doing this?

3:20 p.m.

Minister of Energy and Resources, Government of Saskatchewan

Bronwyn Eyre

We should do everything we can to get that message across. Minister Savage will have heard me use that stat before. I'm sure my chief of staff is tearing his hair out because he's heard me use it so many times. I think it bears repeating because it's so difficult, it seems, to be heard on that.

We are green leaders in Canada. We're amazing innovation leaders. It's miraculous, some of the true remediation that has been accomplished at sites including in, of course, Minister's Savage's province in the oil sands area. It was that statistic that was first shared with us at an energy ministers' conference. I believe it was a professor from the University of Calgary. I glommed on to it immediately because of its positive repercussions for us globally.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I find it really interesting, because a lot of times environmentalists are putting the pressure on to see the [Technical difficulty--Editor]. When we look at the displacement of this oil, it gets replaced by something else.

Ms. Savage, you talked about this a little bit in regard to propane. You said that, if we don't have this pipeline operating, to replace it and put it on rail just doesn't make sense. If you look at us in Saskatchewan, for example, we like to ship grain by train and oil by pipelines. That makes a lot of sense.

Ms. Savage, in regard to your comment about propane, how do you see that impacting the emissions targets that we're trying to reach? How does it impact in regard to the world as a global network if we start to see propane coming from other parts of the world instead of coming out of Alberta and Saskatchewan?

3:20 p.m.

Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta

Sonya Savage

I think we know that we produce our energy at the highest environmental standards. I'll talk a little bit about some of the areas where we have led the United States by many years. In fact, in Alberta, we were the first jurisdiction in North America to put a price on carbon, and we did that over a decade ago in 2007 with our heavy emitters levy on carbon.

We have methane emission regulations where we're reducing methane emissions by 45% by 2025. We're ahead of the United States. They're looking to Canada and they're looking to Alberta on how they do this. How do they reduce their emissions like Canada has, like Alberta has? The one thing we know for sure is that, when you need energy and you can't source it from your most reliable, trusted sources, you're going to get it from somewhere else.

As I said earlier, it would probably mean they need to get propane from the U.S. gulf states, or it needs to be sourced for refining and preparing. It would have to come by rail or by truck, which, of course, increases emissions.

3:20 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Walker, how does Ontario feel in regard to having the fate of the Sarnia region and the auto industry in the hands of a court in the U.S.? Isn't that a little bit more concerning? Doesn't that maybe bode well for an argument to have an all-Canadian pipeline somewhere in the future?

3:20 p.m.

Associate Minister of Energy, Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines, Government of Ontario

Bill Walker

We're very concerned, Mr. Hoback, and to all members of the committee, this is very daunting from economic, environmental and energy security standpoints. All of our lives will be drastically impacted on both sides of the border, frankly.

This is going to have huge impact on my colleague MPP Bob Bailey in Sarnia and the surrounding area, but it will impact all the way through from Alberta to Ontario, through Quebec and into the Maritimes. This is going to drastically impact all of us.

Ontario definitely wants to have a team Canada approach to ensure that we have a reliable, safe form of energy that's affordable. We're all going to be suffering, as we all are now, through COVID-19. We need the economic recovery to kick into gear to give people some relief, and this is going to play an absolutely critical part. Agriculture, construction, all industry frankly, every group in the province is going to be impacted. Our hospitals, our long-term care facilities....Everybody's impacted.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

You talked about the 125,000 jobs [Technical difficulty—Editor]. When we go back to [Technical difficulty—Editor] that bottleneck, where does it go? What are the consequences of that?

3:25 p.m.

Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta

Sonya Savage

We have been there before. We know what happens when you don't have enough pipeline capacity to move your production. Alberta was in that place in 2018-19 because we didn't have pipelines built on time. Northern gateway was vetoed. Energy east was shut down. When you don't have enough pipeline capacity to move your product, you blow out the differentials. You're selling your product at a price discount. In Alberta, that led to curtailment, which is production quotas that the government had to put in place to manage production in a very unusual way. It's the same way that OPEC countries do it.

When you are managing production and curtailing it, you're not letting the free market move properly. That leads to a loss of jobs, lower prices and a lack of investment. It disrupts the whole way that an economy is supposed to run.

Not having a way to move 400,000 barrels of oil in a pipeline is very detrimental to Alberta. We've been there. It would potentially move by rail with a higher environmental footprint or we would be back in a situation where we would have to curtail production.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Thank you, Mr. Hoback.

We will now move to Ms. Bendayan for the next six minutes.

March 30th, 2021 / 3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank all of the witnesses for appearing before our committee today on such an important issue.

Obviously, each of you were quite clear on how important Line 5 is for the various provinces that you represent. It certainly sounds like we're all on the same page. I believe a few ministers referenced Minister O'Regan's testimony before this committee and how extremely steadfast the federal government is on ensuring that we achieve a resolution on Line 5.

I would like to take a step back for just a moment to perhaps look at the broader context. We are here in this special committee that was created specifically to study Canada-U.S. relations. We are three weeks ahead of President Biden's leaders summit on climate where both Canada and the United States will be setting new, enhanced 2030 climate targets.

Minister Eyre, you mentioned in your opening remarks that we just received the Supreme Court's decision—a very important decision, I believe—not only affirming the federal government's right to price pollution, but also recognizing the existential threat of climate change.

This is certainly an important moment in history. North America is moving very quickly to a net zero future and our neighbour—Canada's largest trading partner, closest ally and friend—clearly expects to find a partner on this in Canada not only at the federal level, but I believe at all levels of government.

As we push to protect critical infrastructure like Line 5, I would like to ask each of the witnesses if you agree that our position as team Canada can only be strengthened by showcasing with concrete steps our commitment to transitioning to a new, low-carbon economy.

3:25 p.m.

Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta

Sonya Savage

Do you want me to jump in first or afterward?

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

We're happy to start with you, Minister Savage. Thank you.

3:25 p.m.

Minister of Energy, Government of Alberta

Sonya Savage

Thank you.

We know [Technical difficulty—Editor] to lower emissions. We have taken some steps in Alberta, as the first jurisdiction to have a price on pollution and to ensure that we have methane regulations.

Our oil sands, in particular, have already achieved the 21% emissions intensity reduction. Many of our producers—in fact, most of the production in the oil sands—are committed to net zero.

Getting that production to net zero will lower emissions not only for Alberta, but for all of Canada. The way we do that and the way we can get there is through carbon capture, utilization and storage. There is no pathway to net zero in Canada, in Alberta or really anywhere in the world without carbon capture, utilization and storage.

That's why we're working with the federal government on solutions for that. We are working with Minister O'Regan on how we can move forward in a very big way to get to net zero production in the oil sands in our industries. That is through carbon capture.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Minister Eyre, go ahead.

3:30 p.m.

Minister of Energy and Resources, Government of Saskatchewan

Bronwyn Eyre

I think that's where that statistic I raised earlier is so important, isn't it? We have such a strong record, as it stands, from which we can certainly build. Minister Savage referenced carbon capture and storage. I think it's also very important to recognize that leading environmentalists say that we cannot achieve the Paris targets without the enhanced oil recovery side to carbon capture and storage. We can't be selective about what kind of carbon capture and storage or utilization and storage we like if we don't include EOR. I think that's extremely important to all targets.

In terms of GHG emissions, I think one has to be clear on where we are going and how we are getting there. I mean, we should be very clear on the fact that, for example, GHG emissions have fallen radically in the United States because of the use of gas and LNG. Again, if you're selective about which things you like in order to get to the goals we all agree we must get to, that can create something of an issue.

I think in Saskatchewan we feel it is very important to build on the strengths we have and to complement traditional sectors with emerging ones—lithium, hydrogen and helium. These all build on the strengths we have. They don't turn our backs hook, line and sinker on our energy workers. We have 30,000 here in the province of Saskatchewan, with all the families that supports. We have to be very cognizant of the cost of some transitions. With hydrogen, for example, if we move to a low-carbon hydrogen economy, that will cost hundreds of billions of dollars.

Just so everyone is very clear, as we move forward on some of these areas there is a cost involved—socio-economic and also literal.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC

Mr. Walker.

3:30 p.m.

Associate Minister of Energy, Ministry of Energy, Northern Development and Mines, Government of Ontario

Bill Walker

[Technical difficulty—Editor] a pleasure to be here.

I just have to re-emphasize what Minister O'Regan said: It's non-negotiable. We have to do this. This is today we're talking about for those 23,500 jobs and the Line 5 jobs that will be impacted almost immediately. I think everyone is cognizant that we have to move forward. We have to find other ways to power our economies. However, at the end of the day, Ontario has one of the cleanest out there, with our hydro and nuclear fleets, to be able to provide those emissions free....

Taking those types of jobs, and the impact of putting all of the transport of that fuel onto either trucks or even rail, adds to the environmental impacts. We are looking at things like hydrogen and small modular reactors through nuclear to enhance, again, that clean ability to provide stable, reliable energy. No one's disputing that we don't have to move. But to come in and say all of a sudden that we're just going to pull this out, with no thought process as to what the impacts will be to humans....

Let's not forget the human impact here, the lives that will be devastated and disrupted by trying to do it this quickly. I think it was Minister Eyre who suggested that to the person on the street, it would not seem practical or realistic that we would be able to do it now. We need time to be able to do that. We've been doing it for a lot of years safely. There have been no leaks. There have been no spills. Why we can't fathom that we can do another pipeline in an even more enhanced way for this very viable and effective product.... I believe we can and should and in fact must.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Raj Saini

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you now have the floor for six minutes.