Evidence of meeting #24 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was saskatchewan.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Boda  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan
Charles Smith  Associate Professor, St. Thomas More College, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Darla Deguire  Director, Prairie Region, Canadian Labour Congress
Jim Harding  As an Individual
Kenneth Imhoff  As an Individual
Robert Bandurka  As an Individual
Nial Kuyek  As an Individual
John Klein  As an Individual
Ross Keith  As an Individual
Dave A.J. Orban  As an Individual
Lorna Evans  As an Individual
Erich Keser  As an Individual
Patricia Donovan  As an Individual
Calvin Johnson  As an Individual
Patricia Farnese  As an Individual
Jane Anweiler  As an Individual
William Baker  As an Individual
Russ Husum  As an Individual
Lee Ward  Associate Professor of Political Science, Campion College, University of Regina, As an Individual
Carl Cherland  As an Individual
Nancy Carswell  As an Individual
David Sabine  As an Individual
Randall Lebell  As an Individual
Shane Simpson  As an individual
Dastageer Sakhizai  As an individual
D-Jay Krozer  As an Individual
Maria Lewans  As an Individual
Norman L. Petry  As an Individual
Rachel Morgan  As an Individual
Dauna Ditson  As an Individual
Frances Simonson  As an Individual
Rodney Williams  As an Individual
William Clary  As an Individual

2:50 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

I'm sorry.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

No, it's fine. Go full steam ahead, and we'll worry about the time.

Mr. Ste-Marie, you have the floor.

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you for coming to speak to us today. Welcome. I would also like to welcome the colleagues I am pleased to see here, in Regina. I would also like to extend a particular welcome to the members of the public who are here to listen.

I am the member for Joliette, so I will speak in French. It will be an opportunity to use the interpretation services.

I am pleased to see you and am eager to hear what you have to say tonight. There will be an open mike session. The committee is travelling across Canada to hear what you have to say.

I have many questions and very little time. I will start with Mr. Boda.

You said in your presentation that one of the things you can share with us, that we have heard already, of course, is that good electoral reform takes time. You need to go and see people, take the time to speak with them, listen to them, help them understand the system, consult everyone, clearly define each role, each step.

A few months ago, the federal Chief Electoral Officer came to tell us that if we wanted to make good on the government's promise to have a new voting system for the next election, changes would have to be made, the legislation adopted, approved in the Senate, discussed and everything before next spring, May at the latest, if not June.

Do you think that is a realistic deadline for a good reform?

2:50 p.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan

Michael Boda

I think it will be better if I answer in English. Thank you.

First of all, I have to say how much respect I have for my colleagues in Ottawa. Mr. Mayrand is very good at election administration. He is an election administrator's election administrator, so I will know that he has done his due diligence in terms of laying out what is viable and workable in the context of election administration.

Yes, I did talk about the experience of Scotland and about how there was too much change too quickly. That was my understanding and assessment after the fact. It became very obvious that had been the case. I think Andy O'Neill spoke to you, and he offered that same assessment. He was the head of the electoral commission in Scotland.

Can this be achieved? I believe that if Mr. Mayrand is saying that the transition can be achieved within the timeline for the next election, then it is possible. The question is, from a recommendation standpoint of this committee, are you going to be recommending the right things in terms of the public education campaign?

Obviously there will be a transition if you are changing the electoral system. The mandate of Elections Canada or any election management body needs to be there; they have the capacity to educate the public going forward. Those were some of the things we learned from the Scottish environment.

2:50 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

I would like to ask Mr. Smith another question.

You spoke about distortions and exclusions relating to social cleavages in the various population categories. A few times, the government has suggested the possibility of adopting a preferential ballot system. In that system, we would have the same ridings, but the member would be elected using a preferential balloting system.

Do you think that kind of system would reduce the distortions and exclusions caused both by the vote cast and the social cleavages, which would seem to be your concern?

2:55 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

Thank you very much.

Do you mean a ranked ballot, the idea of just changing the ballot?

The ranked ballot is an interesting reform, because now you'll get rid of this idea of false majorities. No candidate will be elected to Parliament who hasn't won 50% of the vote as the first or second or third choice of a voter. I would argue that's a bit of a band-aid solution to a much larger problem. The problem is, whose voices are being represented in Parliament? Under the current system, certain voices are preferred and other voices are silenced, and it will change depending on the region they are from, depending on the balance of power in different groups within society. Francophones are going to be very represented in Quebec, but they're not going to be very represented in Saskatchewan. The ranked ballot does nothing to address that concern.

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you very much.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. May is next.

2:55 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank everyone for being with us here today in Regina. I see a lot of people in the audience who I know are very committed on many issues, because I've seen them fighting uranium mining and acting on issues related to climate change. I'm hoping that we will have time to hear from a lot of people at our open mike.

In the time I have now to speak to our two witnesses, I wanted to start with you, Dr. Boda, because you're right in saying that our Scottish witnesses did point out to us that their election was a bit of an anomaly because they'd experimented with a different ballot and they'd realized they'd made some mistakes.

I'm trying to remember...Scotland is certainly much more complicated than any other. We've had witnesses from New Zealand, from Australia, from Scotland, from Ireland, and from Germany so far. We've had witnesses appearing by video, if people are worried about the costs. Scotland is the only one where voters deal with four different voting systems. They have single transferable vote for their local councils; then at the other end, they have a pure list system for electing their European member of Parliament, they have an additional member system for their Scottish Parliament, and they're still voting for their Westminster MP with first past the post. They manage this in most election years without difficulty and without confusion.

Did you look at others? You had the personal experience of being in Scotland in what I think was probably their most confused election ever, based on trying a different ballot type. Do you have any observations from any of the other countries we've heard from—New Zealand, Australia, Germany, or Ireland?

2:55 p.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan

Michael Boda

I can refer to work that I've done in Pakistan and in Jordan, but perhaps Saskatchewan might be a good case study for you. We have just gone through a process of reforming legislation during the last cycle, and we're beginning a process of identifying whether there is an opportunity for reform and modernization in the coming cycle. A theme that we focused on during the last cycle was “not too much too quickly”. As a result, we made only 11 changes—and certainly the electoral system wasn't among them—to the election system in order to run the past general election in April of this past year.

In other cases, I'm not going to say that making changes is a bad thing. I think that innovation can be very effective when you are looking at engaging your voters, so I don't want to go on record as one who suggests that innovation is wrong and that it will be ineffective. What I am saying is that you need to be careful that there is enough time to make the changes you want to make.

In Saskatchewan we're already planning for 2022. You have to be able to focus beyond a single electoral cycle to two or three electoral cycles. It goes back to using that ship metaphor rather than a speedboat metaphor, because it's very applicable in this context.

2:55 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you.

I think I have enough time to ask another question of Professor Smith.

I took notes on your evidence. I think you said that our current voting system—my problem is with my handwriting—you said it does not place voters at the centre.

It reminded me of something that Professor Pippa Norris from Harvard said when she was answering a question. She said that it depends what you value. If you privilege a system to privilege political parties, you'll want first past the post. If you privilege voters, you'll pick proportional representation.

Are you saying that if you want to put voters at the centre, you change your voting system?

3 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

In this case, yes. Professor Pippa Norris is someone I quite respect, so she could say it better than I could, but I think the answer is yes. I'm just going to say yes, and now I won't get cut off on the microphone.

I think that when you look at our voting system, you'll see that it puts stability at the centre of its moral or normative claim, but that doesn't mean it puts voters at the centre of its claim.

3 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

If I may have a little bit more time, I will quickly go back to you, Mr. Boda.

I know you wanted to say more about online voting. Is there anything you want to fit into 15 seconds?

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You have 30 seconds.

3 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3 p.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Saskatchewan

Michael Boda

You're very kind, sir.

I would add that I think there is an opportunity to do pilots and to look at innovation to include groups that don't have access to the ballot in a meaningful way at this point. If you're looking for opportunities to test online voting, I think that would be the case, but as for implementing a national system at this time for online voting, I'm just not convinced we're there yet.

However, it's a bit like a train going down the track. Online voting is coming. It's just a matter of when it will arrive and when we can account for some of these principles in the international covenant that need to be considered, such as secrecy.

3 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

I'm going to summarize your testimony as having to do with ships and trains.

Thank you.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Ms. Sahota, you have the floor.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Smith, you spoke quite a lot about diversity and aboriginal representation in our Parliament. That's very important to me in particular, and I'm sure to everybody sitting at this committee table.

I was having a very interesting conversation about this aspect just a couple of days ago with a professor at my old university. Her area of expertise is electoral reform, and she's very excited about the work that we're doing. We started talking about this last election and how well minorities did in comparison to past elections.

We have about 46 people, mostly belonging to the Liberal Party, who are of a minority or aboriginal background. It has been quite exciting for a lot of small communities to see that representation in Parliament. I know we can do better. We want to do better.

Do you feel that bringing some kind of electoral reform to our system would create the change that we would like to see?

3 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

Thank you for that question. I guess the short answer is yes and no.

I've been following the testimony of some of my colleagues and I was particularly interested in that of Professor Thomas from the University of Calgary on women in Parliament. She studies this aspect directly, so I would defer to some of her testimony, but I do know that when you look at the comparative evidence....

New Zealand is a country that I've studied a little bit, and I follow it. They had set aside three seats, I think, for the Maori, and these were reflected in the permanent seats. After the transition to MMP voting, after a few elections under proportional representation, there was a massive increase in Maori representation in all of the parties. They responded, I think, based on what voters were looking for.

I think there's a real possibility. To the credit of the Liberal Party, the New Democratic Party, the Conservative Party, and the Green Party, they have been actively recruiting a diverse array of candidates, much more so than in the past, but I would defer to your point in asking whether we can do better.

When we put the parties at the centre of that question, I think we're missing a real opportunity to empower voters to make the decisions as well. When we look at the comparative evidence, it's pretty convincing.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Okay.

I looked a bit into Australia because we've been pointing out Australia's great electoral system. They have only three openly gay members of Parliament. About 30% of their parliament are women, which is a bit better than what we're doing, so we've been looking at that number. About three members of the indigenous population are in the House of Representatives. My numbers may not reflect the latest election, but in 2010 or something like that, I saw online that about 28 members had been born outside Australia. Only 10 of those were born outside of Europe, so there were still Caucasian members of Parliament that they were including in that number of 28. Here in Canada we have 46.

Percentage-wise they have fewer members, but we're sitting at almost the same number for women and almost the same number for minorities, so why aren't they doing very much better than us? I want to see the results with these other countries.

We've been talking a lot about party will as well. It's great to have PR systems, but if the will isn't there, then it may be that none of those list members will be women or from indigenous minorities.

When it comes down to it, can we see the results just because of the system they put in place? I'm not seeing it when I look up this information. When it comes to visible minorities, I'm not seeing a big change in the numbers. We're doing much better in Canada.

3:05 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

Yes, there's definitely some evidence that Canada is doing well in certain areas.

When we look at where people of colour and indigenous members are being elected, they usually have strong demographic populations in those ridings, which is great and leads to some important observations about the differences in the systems.

Don't forget that Australia only has partial proportional representation. It also deals with the same types of institutions that we have, and it has mandatory voting and what have you. I'm not an expert on Australia, so I can't get into those specifics, but let's look at the—

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

What about any other country?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Actually, you can talk about any other country for 20 seconds.

3:05 p.m.

Prof. Charles Smith

I would end, then, by pointing to Saskatchewan as an example. Where are the voices of francophones, the francophone Saskatchewan population, or indigenous populations in urban centres who don't have the chiefs speaking for them on the national level the way they do on reserves? These are real questions on which we can ask ourselves if we can do better.