Evidence of meeting #26 for Electoral Reform in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was please.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thomas  Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Carlos Sosa  Second Vice-Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
April D'Aubin  Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Louise Lamb  As an Individual
Terry Woods  As an Individual
Henry Shore  As an Individual
Marcel Gosselin  As an Individual
Jeremie Gosselin  As an Individual
Morrissa Boerchers  As an Individual
Charles David Nicraez  As an Individual
Alon D. Weinberg  As an Individual
Matthew Maclean  As an Individual
Glenn D.M. Morrison  As an Individual
Sandy Rubinfeld  As an Individual
Randall J. Proven  As an Individual
David J. Woods  As an Individual
Rosemary K. Hnatiuk  As an Individual
Shawn Deborah Kettner  As an Individual
Joseph Harry Wasylycia-Leis  As an Individual
Suzannel Sexton  As an Individual
Evan Jacob Krosney  As an Individual
Aleela Cara Gerstein  As an Individual
Eric Suderman Siemens  As an Individual
Judith S. Herscovitch  As an Individual
Ian Elwood-Oates  As an Individual
Gene Degen  As an Individual
Karl Taliesin  As an Individual
James Ro Beddome  As an Individual
Allan Menard  As an Individual
David Lobson  As an Individual
Dirk Hoeppner  As an Individual
Erin L. Keating  As an Individual
Shona Rae Boris  As an Individual
Niall Harney  As an Individual
Ann LaTouche  As an Individual
Andrew Park  As an Individual
Michael Bailey  As an Individual
Shauna-Lei Leslie  As an Individual

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good evening, everyone. This is meeting number 26 of the Special Committee on Electoral Reform.

As you know, we met in the summer to receive testimony, in many cases from academic experts and other stakeholders. Now, as of yesterday, we started our cross-Canada tour, which is a three-week tour that will take us to every province and every territory.

Earlier today we had the same kinds of hearings in a town outside of Winnipeg, St-Pierre-Jolys, and here we are tonight in the city.

We have three witnesses: Professor Paul Thomas, professor of political studies at the University of Manitoba; and two witnesses from the Council of Canadians with Disabilities. Each witness will have 10 minutes. I believe Mr. Sosa and Ms. D'Aubin will be splitting the 10 minutes.

The way we function is that after the presentations we will have one round of questions. Each member can engage witnesses for five minutes, and that five minutes includes the member's questions and any answers to those questions. If I have to close the segment after five minutes or so, please don't be offended. It's just that we have time restrictions, and it's just the way things work procedurally at House of Commons committees. After the round of five-minute questions, we're going to have an open-mike session, and I think we'll probably have quite a few people coming up to the mike, which is fantastic. It looks as though that will last about an hour and 45 minutes, depending on how it goes.

We'll get started with Professor Thomas for 10 minutes.

6:30 p.m.

Dr. Paul Thomas Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Thank you very much for allowing me to present my perspective on this important topic.

Let me also thank the members of the committee. I know that some summer plans were changed, and now you have an arduous trip across the country. I appreciate the work you're doing on behalf of Canadians.

I have a formal submission, within the word limits you assigned, on the subject of mandatory voting. I also prepared a 30-page paper for my own enlightenment on the pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages, of various electoral systems around the world, with some examples. I'm happy to provide that to anybody who would like to tackle that. It comes with a guarantee to cure insomnia.

6:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

6:30 p.m.

Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Dr. Paul Thomas

So those are two topics I'd be happy to answer questions on.

For today's opening remarks, I thought I'd stick very strictly to a text I've titled “Ten Quick Thoughts on Electoral Reform in Ten Minutes”. I didn't add that they were not particularly original thoughts, but you may be thinking that.

Point one is that there's no perfect electoral system. Different countries have relatively strong, healthy democracies under a variety of electoral systems. By international standards and comparisons, Canada has a relatively healthy democracy. The design and choice of an electoral system must reflect the geography, history, traditions, and changing social, economic, and political realities of a particular country. Borrowing from elsewhere must be done cautiously, because it is difficult to predict how different models will work in the Canadian context.

Two, there are two main questions involved with electoral reform. What problem, or problems, are we seeking to address, and what principles and values are we seeking to see reflected in the design of a new electoral system? On both these points, reasonable people can disagree on both the principles and values that should guide reform and the real-world consequences of a particular substitute model.

Three, electoral reform is often presented as a response to the public frustration and disillusionment with politics, politicians, and governments. There is a malaise, not a crisis of democracy, in my opinion, within the Canadian political system, but the first past the post electoral system is not the principal cause of what is a multi-dimensional problem. Adoption of a new electoral system would contribute only marginally to a reduction in public discontent.

Four, a related issue raised by the current electoral reform debate is whether it is realistic in a large, complicated, pluralistic, and dynamic country to expect omnibus national political parties to capture and to give meaningful political expression to the diverse values, interests, demands, and needs that exist in Canada. Has the era of national brokerage political parties passed? Does the future entail a proliferation of parties that structure their appeals to voters on a narrower, less inclusive basis? Should electoral reform support a trend towards more specialized parties? It's definitely clear from comparative examples that some models of proportional representation would lead to more political fragmentation in the form of a greater number of fringe parties.

Five, composing a list of principles and values that should guide the design of an electoral system is actually relatively easy. However, such a list is almost always general and vague. Finding agreement on what the principles and values mean in practice is one of the difficult steps in the reform process. Moreover, such design criteria will to some extent clash, so it is not possible to maximize the achievement of each of those values and principles. Instead, trade-offs must be made, but this can only be done subjectively and impressionistically.

Six, a constructive debate over electoral reform must avoid reduction into simplistic false dichotomies that encourage proponents of different models to talk past one another. For example, the choice is often presented as between a majoritarian model versus some form of proportional representation. In fact there are working models out there that seek to find the sweet spot where some of the advantages and fewer of the disadvantages of each type of the PR model are realized.

Seven, national party representation versus individual local representation is another such dichotomy that's often presented. My past research on regional ministers, on party caucuses, and even on the Senate, tells me that there's more regional representation happening within the Canadian political system than is popularly imagined. The problem is that such representation occurs behind closed doors, so it is not generally recognized by the public as taking place.

In my view, therefore, preserving the personal factor in any electoral system is absolutely crucial. By the “personal factor”, I mean the maintenance and even enhancement of the role of the local MP in being responsive to and representing her or his constituency in Ottawa. Service to the community is the main motivation that causes people to stand for public office initially. Serving constituents is often the most satisfying job for MPs. Even if a majority of Canadians are hard-pressed at times to name their local MP, they are nonetheless strongly attached to the idea of a local representative who is elected by and answers to their community.

Eight, the word “legitimacy” comes up frequently in electoral reform debate. This is a contentious notion. It involves both a substantive and a procedural aspect. Put simply, legitimacy requires decisions that are based on widely held values and made through appropriate and widely accepted procedures. In other words, legitimacy is more than just levels of approval in a poll, an election, or a referendum. A decision based on sound evidence and careful analysis should have legitimacy even if it fails a popularity test, especially in the short term.

Nine, from the standpoint of legitimacy, electoral reform poses a dilemma. Political parties represented in Parliament and around this table are asked to select the rules of the game in which they are players. In an era of widespread public cynicism, there will inevitably be perceptions that each of the parties will make a self-interested calculation to choose their preferred electoral system. It is conceivable, however, that a party or parties could genuinely believe that a particular model not only will be to their political advantage but also that it will best serve the current and future needs of the country. In terms of public support and legitimacy, it would definitely help if agreement on a particular electoral system would be achieved among two or more parties on this committee.

Ten, mobilizing informed public consent and support for electoral reform will be difficult. Most Canadians take the electoral system for granted. They are reasonably clear on what values and principles they wish to see reflected in the electoral system, but they lack information on the technical matters related to the design of the system. In communicating about the electoral system, it is important for reasons of credibility, and to avoid future disappointment, not to exaggerate either the problems of the current system or the benefits of alternative models.

In summary, a decision on a new electoral system involves a consideration of multiple values, a series of potential purposes or aims, and a significant measure of uncertainty about how a particular model will work in practice. There is no way that even the smartest and best-informed Canadians, including the members of this committee, can hold all the relevant considerations in their mind at one point in time and make a comprehensive decision weighing all the factors.

In terms of practical reasoning, therefore, I would recommend that each member, and Canadians generally, select three or four values and aims that they consider to be the most important. Then you might consider constructing a matrix that ranks two or three electoral system options against this limited number of criteria. In regard to the long paper I mentioned, you can just watch people's eyes glaze over when you go through multiple lists of advantages and disadvantages. I think simplification is necessary.

Finally, I'll conclude by saying that I'm skeptical about the urgency of electoral reform and the capacity of any system to deliver all the multiple benefits that various sincere proponents of other models claim. In my opinion, if there must be a replacement for first past the post, the choice is most likely between an alternative vote model and a mixed-member proportional model based on regions.

Electoral reform could wait until after the 2019 election. A committee report and a concrete government proposal could become part of the next election campaign. Meanwhile, there's much else to be done on a democratic reform agenda.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Professor Thomas.

We'll go now to Mr. Sosa, for five minutes.

6:40 p.m.

Carlos Sosa Second Vice-Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

My name is Carlos Sosa. I am the second vice-chair of the Council of Canadians with Disabilities.

CCD is a national human rights organization of people with disabilities working for an inclusive and accessible Canada. We welcome this opportunity to speak to you today on this critical and important public policy issue.

Before I get into my main point, I'd like to put the following concerns on the record about the accessibility of the Minister of Democratic Institutions Maryam Monsef's cross-country tour on democratic reform. In one such consultation that was held at the University of Toronto in University College, the consultation was not physically accessible. In fact, there was no elevator and it was on a second floor up a long flight of stairs.

In another consultation in Peterborough, there were also accessibility issues. Minister Monsef acknowledged that this had occurred, and a constituent of hers recommended that she hold a consultation for persons with disabilities and their organizations.

It is absolutely essential that consultations such as this are accessible to all Canadians, including those with disabilities. In any further consultations, efforts need to be made to invite persons with disabilities, and their organizations, to make their accommodation needs known before an event is held. That includes committee meetings such as yours.

Tonight, there are some issues of accessibility in this room. One thing that could be done is ensuring that there is seating for people who have mobility issues, and wheelchairs as well. That should be done, including also ensuring that there is some kind of American sign language, ASL, interpretation, and a CART provider as well.

Voting is a right that is exercised by millions of Canadians, but persons with disabilities encounter many barriers when it comes to participating in the political process. Some of the barriers we face include accessing identification, especially if you live in poverty and have a fixed income. That can be a major barrier to participation. The choice would be simple here, and that would be survival.

Those who are vision impaired also face significant obstacles in the voting process, as they are unable to verify who they have voted for independently. Online or telephone voting can serve as a solution, but it must not replace the paper ballot. In the development of any process, persons with disabilities must be involved from the ground up.

Another issue is access to polling stations. It is absolutely essential that efforts are made to ensure that voting is accessible to every Canadian over the age of 18. This afternoon, the parliamentary committee conducted its hearings in St-Pierre-Jolys, in rural Canada, where there is also a lack of affordable accessible transportation for persons with disabilities. In urban environments, there can also be a lack of accessible taxicabs, and long waits for what we call Winnipeg Handi-Transit, which is called para-transit in other cities. There are long waits for that. Polling stations must be conveniently located for those who are unable to afford the transportation costs to get to a polling station or for those electors who have mobility issues.

In order to become a candidate, people must run for nominations for their respective political parties. Those who want to run face many barriers just to secure the nomination, including access to financial resources. When running for elections, candidates with disabilities often need additional accommodations to ensure they are on the same level playing field as those without disabilities. Some of the accommodations include having a guide for visually impaired persons or an ASL interpreter for those who are deaf. A person who has mobility issues may not be able to access apartment buildings or houses because of a lack of accessibility.

Persons with disabilities who want to find out information about their local candidates running for election must be given an equal opportunity to find out more information. Campaign offices must be accessible to everyone, including persons with disabilities. At all-candidate meetings there must be a requirement to ensure that they are accessible and that American sign language interpreters are there to interpret the meeting.

In the development of any legislation, the experiences of persons with disabilities must be taken into account. If they are not taken into account, then many of our community will feel that they are not heard.

I thank you for giving us this important opportunity to share the disability perspective.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Sosa.

Ms. D'Aubin.

6:45 p.m.

April D'Aubin Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

On behalf of the Council of Canadians with Disabilities, as my colleague Carlos did, I would like to thank the committee for this opportunity to appear before it.

As my colleague John Rae, the first vice-chair of CCD, pointed out in his personal submission to the committee, much of what we do involves trying to remove all barriers and prevent the introduction of new barriers. As surprising as it may seem, new barriers continue to be introduced even in 2016. That is why we are here tonight, to encourage you not to introduce new barriers as you go about electoral reform.

I note that the electoral reform national dialogue information booklet “Electoral Reform: Community Dialogue” states, “Canadians expect greater inclusion...from their public institutions.” This statement echoes what CCD has been advocating since 1976, increased access and inclusion for persons with various disabilities. The booklet also goes on to elaborate a number of guiding principles, including “Support accessibility and inclusiveness to all eligible voters, and avoiding undue complexity in the voting process.” Adherence to universal design principles would go a long way toward eliminating the barriers encountered by Canadians with various disabilities.

The work of this committee presents an opportunity for Canada to take another step down the road toward implementing the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which Canada ratified in 2010 through a unanimous resolution of the House of Commons and with the agreement of all Canadian provinces and territories. Thus the CRPD enjoys a broad political support in Canada, and it is up to us, as citizens, to translate this political support for the CRPD into practical action.

In the CRPD preamble, Canada has agreed that “persons with disabilities continue to face barriers in their participation” and human rights violations, and it has undertaken, in the general obligations, to address these problems.

In article 29, which addresses “participation in political and public life”, Canada has guaranteed “persons with disabilities political rights and the opportunity to enjoy them on an equal basis with others”. The article goes on to encourage states parties to “[facilitate] the use of assistive and new technologies where appropriate”.

At this point, I would like to address the committee's mandate to look at online voting.

As Carlos said, marking the paper ballot is a barrier to some voters: people with vision impairment and dexterity problems. As well, the written information on the paper ballot is a barrier for people with intellectual disabilities and learning disabilities, for whom the written word is difficult. A ballot that includes photographs of the candidates could address this problem. Depending on how it is configured, online voting could offer a solution to these barriers.

We are encouraged that the committee was instructed to look at online voting, but we appreciate the complexities related to incorporating any new approach to voting. CCD was involved, to a limited extent, in Elections Canada's testing of an assistive voting device in the November 29, 2010, by-election in Winnipeg North. Elections Canada held sessions with the disability community to allow it to test this device and explain the parameters of the test. While this particular device was found to be unsatisfactory, a setback such as this should not discourage Canada from looking toward new technologies, such as online and telephone voting, to overcome barriers associated with the paper ballot. Although the test was not deemed satisfactory, engagement with the disability community about the device demonstrated an understanding of the “Nothing about Us” principle, which should be continued as we move forward toward any implementation of voting using new technologies.

In the hearings about the Fair Elections Act, CCD raised concerns about measures in the act that would make it more difficult to test electronic voting, and thought it shouldn't be more difficult to test online voting.

I'd like to spend a few moments addressing mandatory voting. I participated in Minister Monsef's consultation in Winnipeg, where we discussed possible penalties for non-compliance if mandatory voting were instituted. For instance, tax penalties have occurred in Australia.

During the social security review process conducted by then minister Lloyd Axworthy, CCD adopted the principle that people with disabilities should not be made worse off by reform. Some individuals with disabilities may be prevented from voting due to barriers that they have no control over. For example, there may be a lack of accessible transportation to the polls. A person who relies on the services of a personal care attendant may find themselves unable to get out of bed on voting day because their attendant did not show up. A polling station may be inaccessible. It would add insult to injury for them to then have to pay a tax for not voting.

CCD has not taken a position on whether Canada should continue with first past the post or adopt an alternative system. Whatever system Canada adopts, it needs to be fully accessible, inclusive, and understandable by grassroots Canadians with and without disabilities. At the September 12 community consultation, information was provided on the different systems. In my view, we as a community need to get better at translating complex information into plain language so that information is accessible and understandable by the widest range of Canadians possible.

CCD's member organization, People First of Canada, is very knowledgeable about plain language. I would urge the committee to consult with People First of Canada as it engages with Canadians.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. D'Aubin, we're a little bit over time.

6:55 p.m.

Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

April D'Aubin

That's it. Thank you very much.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay. I'm sure you'll have many questions.

We'll start with Ms. Romanado for five minutes, please.

September 20th, 2016 / 6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

I'd like to thank you all for being here on an evening in Winnipeg. It was actually quite interesting. You probably saw me tapping away like crazy, because I was taking a lot of notes. A lot of the information you provided us with will be very helpful.

Mr. Sosa, you mentioned that accessing identification was a problem. Could you elaborate on what you meant by that? I'm not quite clear on it.

6:55 p.m.

Second Vice-Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

Carlos Sosa

Fees are normally charged for you to get appropriate identification. If you have to get photo ID, for example, there's usually a fee. A disproportionate number of persons with disabilities rely on some kind of government assistance program, income assistance, whether that be at the federal level or the provincial level. When your income is so meagre, you cannot afford to pay for identification. Yes, there are other forms of identification, such as a health card or a birth certificate, but even for a birth certificate you have to pay money to get it. It really depends on a person's situation.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.

Ms. D'Aubin, you mentioned that you've been trying to remove old barriers, and that whatever it is we produce or introduce, we shouldn't be introducing new barriers. Could you give us an example of what a new barrier is? I would like to make sure I understand that correctly.

6:55 p.m.

Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

April D'Aubin

Let's say a form of electronic voting was instituted where a voter was expected to interact with a touch screen. If there was no audio output, then that would be a new barrier, because people with vision impairment would not be able to read the screen. The individual would need a system where they could hear the instructions and then interact with the screen.

It is possible to make these things accessible. You just have to work on it from the ground up.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Okay, so I guess you would say, or it would be safe to say, that whatever we decide to put forward as a recommendation, it would be wise for us to work with the Council of Canadians with Disabilities and groups like that to make sure that whatever it is we're doing, we keep that lens on to ensure that we don't put in any more barriers, basically.

6:55 p.m.

Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

April D'Aubin

The guiding principle for the development of the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities was “Nothing about Us, Without Us”, and that's a principle we advance in all activities.

It's not that people want to put barriers in place. It's because their experiences of the environment are different from those of people with disabilities, and they are not aware of what the barriers are.

7 p.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Professor Thomas, I tried my best to capture your 10 points, and I think I did get them.

One of the items you brought forward was national party representation versus local representation, and that preserving the personal factors is absolutely crucial. You said that we need to maintain and enhance the role of the local MP.

We've heard of certain systems that would—I don't want to say “dilute”—add to the number of MPs representing a riding. For instance, in the MMP model, you would vote for a local MP, but there would also be a regional MP, chosen by the party whether from an open list or a closed list, once the voter voted for whatever party they approved of. What do you think would happen, in terms of your suggestion to maintain and enhance the role of the MP, if we were to have multiple MPs in a riding?

7 p.m.

Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual

Dr. Paul Thomas

You obviously would have two categories of members of Parliament. In conversations with members of the House of Representatives in New Zealand, we heard that those MPs who do not have constituency obligations play a different role. For some people, if you're into policy development and you want to be hands-on and help hockey teams—and I guess they wouldn't be coming from New Zealand—or help individual citizens, then you may feel that is not the choice for you. That's one of my concerns.

I like the idea that the local MP puts a human face on government. I was a parliamentary intern way back in the early 1970s in the House of Commons. I worked with two fine members of Parliament, and I saw how important the mailbag was back in those days. It was more than just running errands on behalf of local people. It was generalizing from the cases that were coming before you to be informed when you went and talked on estimates to the minister and the public servants. I don't want to lose that connection.

A two-tier model of MPs can happen, but I think on a national basis it's a non-starter. It has to be on a regional basis or provincial basis. I don't think you want policy kings sitting up high there, favourites with the Prime Minister's Office, if they're in the governing party.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Reid.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Thank you very much.

First of all, let me start by saying to April that you and I have a mutual friend, Kory Earle, who lives in Carleton Place, which is where my constituency office is located. Kory and I go way back. We've been in Santa Claus parades together and a whole variety of other things. Also, during the ice bucket challenge, Kory was the one who dumped the big bucket of ice on my head. I remember that with fondness, but I'm glad it's over.

I want to ask a couple of things to make sure I'm clear on this. When it comes to the issue of mandatory voting, am I right that your organization is opposed to mandatory voting? Would that be correct?

7 p.m.

Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

April D'Aubin

We're opposed if, before all the barriers that might prevent people from voting were resolved, there would be penalties. People with disabilities should not be made worse off by any penalties that would be established with regard to mandatory voting, because there are sometimes reasons beyond your control that prevent you from getting out to vote.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

When one says “mandatory voting”, I assume the only thing that can mean is that there's some kind of penalty for not voting. I can't think of what other meaning it could have.

Okay, I think that answers that.

There's been some discussion about electronic voting. We know that polls indicate that Canadians generally are in favour of the idea. On the other hand, the experts who have spoken before us warn us that we ought to be careful about security issues. It does strike me that if it were introduced as a supplement and were made available to people who are not able to exercise their franchise simply by going down to the polling station, then there might be a reasonable entry point for this means of voting.

Would it prove to be a meaningful supplement for people with disabilities? If so, which kinds of disabilities would it make the biggest difference for? I think mobility issues would be one, but what else would there be?

7:05 p.m.

Member and Research Analyst, Council of Canadians with Disabilities

April D'Aubin

There are people with vision impairment. There's a concern that people with vision impairment cannot independently verify their vote because of the paper ballot. Our colleagues with vision impairment are in support of online voting and telephone voting.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

That's where you would hear the feedback? The automated voice would say, “You have voted for candidate B, so please confirm that's right.” Is it that kind of thing?