Evidence of meeting #22 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-377.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
It's a filibuster. I couldn't suspend, except that I had to go out and pay for the food, so you have to keep talking.
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
8:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, again, the problem with Bill C-377 is that it's void of substance, and it's quite shocking that members would support a bill that is void. Yet you have a plan, the Turning the Corner plan, which is a good plan that actually has the details, and we're actually seeing improvements already.
We need to have fixed sectoral emission caps, and that's what the Turning the Corner plan has, which Bill C-377 does not. The emission trading targets for a given pollutant will specify a maximum level for the pollutant that can be emitted for each sector every year, and that's missing from Bill C-377.
You also need to have benchmarking. In the notice of intent, the government made a commitment to develop emission targets that are at least as rigorous as those in the U.S. or other environmental performance-leading countries. To achieve this end, a benchmarking exercise was undertaken. The exercise began by researching existing regulatory regimes' environmental performance, technology, and operating practices, and the most stringent provincial operating system permits in Canada, Canadian jurisdictions, and other countries such as the United States, Finland, Sweden, and Germany. It also included taking into consideration the factors underlying those regulatory regimes, such as the size and composition of the sectors, the concentration of the facilities across the jurisdiction, and the availability and quality of feedstocks and other raw materials.
From this exercise, environmentally leading requirements were benchmarked by sector and by pollutant. Concurrently, information was gathered on Canadian sectors in which regulatory limits exist in other regulations, for example, the pulp and paper and electricity sectors. Actual Canadian regulatory limits and performance were compared with the regulated limits from the leading jurisdictions. In some sectors, regulatory limits are typically set through provincial certificates of approval or operating permits or licences for individual facilities--for example, petroleum refineries or chemical production facilities--which can have processes and/or products that vary significantly from one facility to another,
In these sectors, the actual emission performance of Canadian facilities was compared with the reported or required performance in different jurisdictions, both in Canada and internationally. This involved deriving the emission intensity values and comparing the performance of similar Canadian and foreign facilities. For other sectors--for example, aluminum smelting in iron and steel-- emission performances both in Canada and abroad, as well as regulatory limits in other jurisdictions, were reviewed. In other cases such as conventional upstream oil and gas, the approach was to benchmark against other facilities in the sector as a whole.
Finally, for the oil sands sector, which is unique to Canada, there are no comparable regulated sectoral emission limits in other countries that would enable a comparison with other jurisdictions. In this case, sectoral targets were established using a multi-step approach. This included an evaluation of performance for similar activities, equipment, and processes at similar sources of emissions in other jurisdictions--such as heavy oil refineries--examination of the potential for reductions using selected emission control technologies, and a comparison of emission intensity performance of individual oil sands facilities within Canada.
In some sectors, analyses carried out in recent years were also taken into account when carrying out the benchmarking exercise. Work done jointly by government and industry was already under way to determine how to adapt benchmarked standards to Canadian circumstances in the pulp and paper sector through the Pulp and Paper Air Quality Forum, in the refining sector through the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment national framework for petroleum refinery emission reductions, and in the base metal smelting sector through the base metal smelting pollution prevention plan.
The objective of the Pulp and Paper Air Quality Forum was to design a 10-year overall multi-faceted air emissions management regime for the pulp and paper industry that would include short-term air pollutant targets at a level that would ensure consistent requirements for all facilities. These proposed air pollutant targets were derived from benchmarking analyses that compared world-leading international industry performance and the most stringent provincial limits.
The approach of the Pulp and Paper Air Quality Forum ensures that a consistent level of achievable control technology exists among similar facilities and is in application elsewhere, and that the overall economic impact of achieving these limits remains realistic. It also facilitates the establishment of equivalency agreements with the provinces and territories, which is very important.
The complexity of the existing regulatory system for petroleum refineries makes it difficult to define a single regulatory emission standard within Canada and other jurisdictions. For this sector, the approach used to determine the cap on emissions was based on the methodology developed through the CCME refinery framework established on May 25, 2005. This framework established an approach to setting facility-level annual caps for a range of air pollutants based on benchmarking Canadian emission performance to comparable performance in the United States. Benchmarking was updated to reflect changes to the U.S. requirements.
A notice requiring the preparation for pollution prevention plans for the base metal smelters and refineries and zinc plants was published in the Canada Gazette, Part I, on April 29, 2006. This notice was the result of extensive work involving stakeholder consultations, and five years of analyses of existing standards, performance, and sulphur capture efficiency of smelters around the world. The targets identified for consideration in the pollution prevention plans would be the basis for air pollutant caps for the base metal smelting sector.
In some sectors, regulatory limits or emission performance levels from leading jurisdictions were adapted to take into account characteristics specific to those sectors in Canada. Characteristics taken into account varied from sector to sector and included the financial situation of the sector, potential impacts on the economy, and the quality of the feedstocks and other raw materials relative to the benchmarked jurisdiction.
The technical feasibility of meeting the most rigorous limits was also considered in establishing emission reduction target options. In some sectors, technically feasible options were evaluated to determine expected reductions in emissions and their costs in dollars per tonne. National emission caps were established by adding together the sectoral emission caps for each pollutant of concern, taking into account an allocation for growth of each sector by 2015.
Is there any mention of this analysis within Bill C-377? No, there's not. There needs to be. There is with Canada's Turning the Corner plan, which is already having a positive effect on the environment, but in Bill C-377 it is missing. It needs to be there but is not.
Under the Turning the Corner plan, there would be a domestic cap and trade emissions trading system for SOx and NOx. The method for allocating credits under the system, including the method by which new facilities would be accommodated within the overall cap, would be determined during the regulatory development process.
There would be separate credits and compliance assessments for SOx emissions and for NOx emissions. Firms would be required to submit credits each year equal to the emissions from their facilities for that year. If a firm is in an area where the quality of the air does not meet national air quality objectives that have been set in advance by the government, restrictions would be placed on the use of credits from outside that area. The feasibility of the use of offsets, in combination with the cap and trade emissions trading system for SOx and NOx, would also be assessed.
The United States and Canada share cross-border airsheds and therefore have a shared responsibility for and interest in reducing air pollutants for all sources that contribute to air pollution. Is there any mention of protecting the air quality of Canadians within Bill C-377? No, there's not. Should there be? I believe there should be. There is in the Turning the Corner plan.
Addressing air pollution on only one side of the border does not make environmental or economic sense. The Canada-U.S. Air Quality Agreement was signed in 1991 to address transboundary acid rain. An annex to the agreement was added in the year 2000 to address ground-level ozone, a key component of smog. Under the agreement, Canada and the U.S. must reduce domestic emissions that flow into the other country and contribute to acid rain or ozone.
Canada and the U.S. recently agreed to start negotiations for an annex to the agreement to reduce transboundary flow of particulate matter. This is very important; recent scientific analysis has shown that joint strategies are needed to address these pollutants. The annex will result in reductions of particulate matter as well as of many of the chemicals that contribute to other air quality issues of concern, such as the acid rain, regional haze, and visibility in the communities along the Canada-U.S. border. Serious action by Canada to reduce its own emissions will make it easier to work jointly with the U.S. to reduce overall emissions.
As part of its ongoing work with the U.S. to address transboundary air pollution, the government will expedite discussions with the U.S. on a cross-border SOx and NOx emissions trading system. Having caps in Canada and in the U.S. of similar stringency would facilitate the development of cross-border trade. Such trading would provide additional flexibility for regulated sources by allowing the most cost-effective emission reduction to be made. A joint Canada-U.S. study published in July 2005 demonstrated the feasibility of cross-border trading of SOx and NOx for the electricity sector.
It is important, Chair, that we have this detail in a bill that's going to be taking Canada post-Kyoto and would be even now taking action on the environment. But Bill C-377 is dealing primarily with post-Kyoto, with no substance, no plans, no details, nothing. It has targets that were set internationally—and we agree with setting international targets—and then each country has unique circumstances. We heard from Mr. Bramley that no details specific to Canada were made, no costing, and he said we need to cost, as did Mr. Layton.
On Bill C-377, again we have another example of the importance of air quality. We have it in the Turning the Corner plan. We end up with cleaner air for Canadians to breathe and we reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We have that now with Canada's Turning the Corner plan--details of how to do it, details about the Canada-U.S. Air Quality Agreement, details of focusing on SOx and NOx and particulate matter, and creating this annex with that Canada-U.S. Air Quality Agreement. We don't have any of that in Bill C-377.
CEPA 1999 has a number of compliance and penalty provisions. Failure by regulated entities to meet any of the requirements set out by CEPA 1999, or the regulations made under it, is an offence.
Enforcement officers verify compliance with the act and its regulations. If a violation is confirmed, action is taken using one or more of the enforcement tools provided under CEPA 1999, such as warnings, directions, tickets, and orders of various types, including environmental protection compliance orders, injunction, or prosecution.
Action taken in response to any failure to comply with regulatory requirements will be predicted and will correspond to the seriousness of the non-compliance. When prosecution is undertaken, such offences may be prosecuted by either summary conviction or indictment. CEPA 1999 includes maximum fines of up to a million dollars a day for each day an offence continues, imprisonment for up to three years, or both. Corporate directors and their officers have a specific duty to take responsible care to ensure that corporations comply with the act, its regulations, and any orders of establishments issued by enforcement officers.
As the members are well aware, enforcement is an important part of the government's plan. Did the NDP support that? No. They voted against enforcement. How about the Bloc? They must have supported it. No, they did not support enforcement of Canada's environmental laws. Now, did the Liberals? Yes, they did.
Thank you very much to my members opposite.
We have to have enforcement. It's like not having police officers enforcing the traffic laws of Canada. People would be speeding if there was never anybody enforcing the speed limits. Canada would be a much less safe place if we didn't have our police officers protecting and keeping Canada safe.
It's the same thing with the environment. You have good environmental laws, which we have with the Turning the Corner plan, and you have them enforced. What's being proposed by the NDP is a bad bill that is vague, with no details of how they're going to achieve anything, so it's not achievable. It will create jurisdictional problems and court challenges, constitutional challenges, with no enforcement options and no enforcement officers. It's no wonder the NDP will never have a real bill that will actually see positive results for the environment.
The air quality has to be part of the objectives of any good bill for the health of Canadians and for the coming generations. Health risks to Canadians from air pollution are associated with direct exposure to ambient levels of particulate matter and ozone, the main components of smog. The relationships between actual emissions, the levels of smog, and their effects on human health are complex. However, health science indicates that even at very low levels, air pollutants affect human health. They also have negative impacts on the environment, on human health, and on environmental health.
The government will set air quality objectives for particulate matter and ozone that will specify a target concentration for ambient air based on an assessment of the health and environmental effects associated with exposure to these air pollutants in Canada. A decision on air quality objectives will be made after an analysis of benefits and risks over a range of concentrations in the air we breathe.
Chair, we need to provide an analysis in modelling to determine the health and environmental benefits and the economic impacts of proposed regulations to reduce industrial air emissions. We need to directly address questions of central importance to Canadians. How will actions improve the health of Canadians and the health of the environment?
Does Bill C-377 address that? No.
How will these actions affect Canadians and the Canadian economy? No, C-377 doesn't address that.
Does the Turning the Corner plan? Absolutely. The impacts of the Turning the Corner plan were systematically traced through several models. All parts of the analysis started with an estimate of what would happen in the absence of the proposed regulations, the business as usual case. The proposed regulatory system and emission targets were then introduced in the model and assessed in terms of established reductions in emissions and changes in economic activity. Reductions in emissions are also translated generally into improvements in key air quality parameters. These improvements, in turn, have associated health and environmental benefits.
The modelling work to date has been complex but provides reasonable, albeit preliminary, general results. Work to generate more refined estimates of the impacts is ongoing.
The economic impacts reflect an integrated assessment of the industrial greenhouse gas and air pollutant regulations. On the benefit side, the modelled impacts reflect improvements in air quality resulting from reduced air pollutant emissions only. It is clearly recognized, however, that climate change has long-ranging global economic, environmental, and social impacts with significant associated costs. These costs are not included in this analysis but are an important consideration in the assessment of the cost-benefit impacts of the regulations.
What happens to air pollutants released to the atmosphere from human-related activities as well as natural emissions, as simulated by Environment Canada's regional air quality modelling system? It describes the physical process such as transport, mixing, the deposition of the air pollutants, and the chemical transformations that air pollutants undergo in the atmosphere. The model provides the concentrations and geographic distributions of primary air pollutants, those directly emitted to the atmosphere, and of secondary air pollutants, those formed chemically in the atmosphere from reactions involving the primary pollutants to which humans and the ecosystems are exposed. The effects on human health and the environment from exposure to these air pollutants are then estimated by impact models. The results are based on these models.
If one goes to Environment Canada's web page, one will see a figure that provides an indication of the reductions of NOx emissions that are expected from the proposed regulatory system and targets, assuming they're all in place by 2015. Reductions in emissions are expected in the major urban centres and throughout the western provinces. That's good news.
The predicted improvements in air quality resulting from the proposed reductions in air pollutant emissions are also illustrated as percentage reductions in annual levels of particulate matter and in summertime ozone levels, again assuming the regulations are implemented by the year 2015. Improvements in ozone levels are shown only for the summer, as the formation of ozone increases with the amount of sunlight; as a result, ozone is not an issue in the winter months.
In addition, in order to highlight the impact of the proposed regulations on Canadian quality, transboundary emissions of air pollutants from the U.S. were assumed to be constant in the model. If one looks at figure G.2, preliminary results indicate that full implementation of the industrial regulations would decrease ozone levels by approximately 5% to 15% in large portions of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba; in localized areas in British Columbia, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes; and by 1% to 5% in the rest of the country. Decreases in levels of ozone are also seen in neighbouring U.S. states.
In figure G.3, the preliminary results predict annual reductions in PM2.5 of between 5% and 50% across a large portion of the country, with large reductions of 15% to 50% in PM2.5 across the prairie provinces and reductions of 5% to 15% for southern Ontario.
Improvements in both ozone and PM2.5 levels are largest in western Canada, where marked reductions in emissions would result from the proposed regulations. Improvements in eastern Canada--although smaller in magnitude, due to the large influence of long-range transport of air pollutants--provide benefits for the large populated areas that are more than often affected by smog events.
In addition to improvements in ambient levels of both PM2.5 and ozone, figure G.4 shows that reductions in acid deposition are predicted primarily in areas where there are significant reductions in NOx and SOx emissions. This will result in a reduction in the size of the area receiving acid deposition levels that are in excess of what the environment--such as lakes or soils--can withstand without being adversely affected.
Health Canada's air quality benefits assessment was used to estimate the human health benefits expected from changes in Canada's ambient air quality due to the proposed regulatory actions. It uses information on air quality, health effects of air pollutants, and the value of avoiding specific effects to calculate both the number of effects and approximate value of these to Canadians.
Substantial health benefits are predicted from the proposed regulations, since it is established that they will achieve reductions in summertime ozone levels of about 3% and a decrease in particulate matter of about 8% in the year 2015. These two air pollutants are the major components of smog.
The total health benefits in the year 2015 from the reduced risk of death and illness associated with these air quality improvements are established to be $6.4 billion. That's huge. The health benefits include reductions in premature mortality and various types of health effects. Most of the benefits are associated with the reduced risk of premature death because of the large value placed on reduced mortality.
Reductions in particulate matter account for the greatest share of the benefits because of the much greater effects on human health of long-term exposure to particulate matter relative to ozone. The total health impact is probably underestimated, because only two air pollutants are considered and only some health outcomes could be quantified because of the lack of information on all the outcomes.
Reductions in the emissions of harmful air pollutants and greenhouse gases would have many benefits for society, including improved environmental conditions. That would provide direct benefits to Canadian ecosystems. In addition, reductions can also raise economic productivity for specific sectors and increase the well-being of Canadians.
Some direct estimates were made of the environmental benefits from the proposed regulations. For example, ozone can hamper photosynthesis and increases the vulnerability of plants to pests and other stressors. The proposed regulations are predicted to reduce ozone levels and associated stress to agricultural plants, resulting in an increase in production of $123 million for key agricultural crops in Canada. That too is huge. The total benefits to agriculture could be much higher because the crops modelled only account for roughly 60% of the value of all crops and the impacts of soil acidification were not included.
It's very important that we consider in Bill C-377 the impacts of the environment and the impacts of a bad plan. A good plan will save Canadian lives. Canadians will live longer. It will increase agricultural output. It will save health care costs. That's what we see now with Canada's Turning the Corner plan.
A poorly written plan will not accomplish anything other than a line in the newspaper—as the commissioner said, confetti and then nothing happens, which is Bill C-377. You end up with a continuing environmental problem where Canadians are dying prematurely. So we have a responsibility to provide a healthy environment, and that's what we get with Canada's Turning the Corner plan but we do not get with Bill C-377, a plan that is void of details, a plan that is void of costing, a plan that is void of impact analysis, a plan that is void of constitutional stability. It is a plan that will not accomplish anything to protect the environment or the health of Canadians.
Canada's Turning the Corner plan has estimated costs of environmental damage. It's rated it as a relatively new area of research, and it is complex. Estimating the costs of environmental damage is important. Further work will be taken to estimate and place a value on the broader range of anticipated environmental impacts of the industrial air emission regulations. This work will build on the results of numerous studies that have estimated various costs of air pollution. For example, acidification of the lakes and rivers in eastern and central Canada has been estimated to result in annual economic losses of $500 million—that's annually—from reduced recreational fishing. Acidification depletes fish stocks in Canada's inland commercial fisheries, an industry worth $70 million per year.
It's important that we protect the environment. Bill C-377 ignores this.
The loss of nutrients due to leaching from acid rain affects forest productivity. Some estimates put annual timber losses from reduced forest growth at $197 million, and $89 million from damage to the maple syrup industry in eastern Canada. Acid rain in the most highly polluted areas in eastern Canada accelerates structural corrosion of costly transmission towers, imposing annual repair costs of $1,000 to $2,000 per tower and reducing tower lifespan by almost 30 years. The environment has a direct cost on Canada's infrastructure.
Greenhouse gas reductions by Canada alone will not significantly address global climate change. Nevertheless, Canada needs to do its share to control global greenhouse gas emissions in order to help address both the global effect and the more local threats to key sectors, resources, and the infrastructure associated with climate change. Those threats could include increased drought and temperature, with particularly severe consequences for the north and the west; decreased hydroelectric generation and transportation capacity from reduced water levels in the Great Lakes and elsewhere; and increased frequency of extreme weather events.
I've noted that the benefits associated with improved human and environmental health arising from the proposed regulations, the Turning the Corner plan, are in the order of $6.4 billion annually. What do we get from Bill C-377? Nothing.
So there are huge benefits to Canada and the environment from the direction Canada is heading in with the Turning the Corner plan—$6.4 billion annually. These benefits need to be weighed against the possible economic costs that can be attributed to the regulatory regime, in order to assess the overall impact on the Canadian economy and quality of life. The economic costs of regulation are often difficult to measure, as they depend on the reactions of a number of economic factors beyond the specific sectors directly affected.
In the case of the proposed regulatory package, the Turning the Corner plan, this would require not only the estimation of the direct impacts on production costs arising from industry compliance with emission regulations, but also that the indirect impact of these costs on future investment decisions, demand and supply, and related consequences for other businesses and consumers be tracked. There are many points of uncertainty throughout this chain of action and reactions.
Preliminary analysis performed by Environment Canada indicates that these costs will be small, but not inconsequential, relative to the total GDP. From an aggregate perspective, the annual economic costs of meeting both the regulated greenhouse gas targets and the regulated air pollution targets should not exceed 0.5% of GDP in any given year up to 2020.
The size of the national economic costs anticipated under the regulations, combined with the inherent margin of error that must be applied to microeconomic model results, makes it difficult to assess with any degree of certainty the impacts of the regulatory initiative at a provincial or a sectoral level. However, the following general observations can be made. There will likely be some year-to-year variation in the national and provincial GDP impacts, reflecting changes in industry and industry investments, with the possibility of small positive GDP impacts in the early years as the regulated industries accelerate investments in more energy-efficient, less polluting capital and technologies in response to the regulations.
Provincial economies with a strong oil and gas sector are expected to continue to see large uninterrupted volumes of production and exports of natural gas and oil. Global demand and strong world prices are expected to allow oil and gas producers and gas pipelines to absorb the relatively small incremental costs of production arising from the regulatory package. For major parts of the oil and gas sector, existing analysis also indicates a high potential for meeting much of the required reduction in greenhouse gas emissions through cost-effective options for carbon capture and storage.
Machinery and construction industries, together with sectors such as iron and steel that supply many related inputs, are expected to benefit overall as demand for their products rises because of new capital investment motivated in other sectors under the regulations. Energy utilities, electricity and natural gas, will likely be mildly affected as they'll be able to pass through many cost increases to their customers. Other major sectors such as manufacturing may experience a small rise in the cost of production associated with the pass-through of increased energy prices by the utilities. The extent to which prices will increase depends on a number of variables, including provincial regulatory policies, differences in capital turnover cycles between provinces and electricity generation units, and the take-up of renewable energy initiatives under recent federal and provincial programs.
A noticeable increase in electricity prices is nevertheless possible. This increase could in turn result in some minor downward adjustments across most sectors of the economy over the long term, for example, around 2015 and later.
The proposed industrial regulations present Canadians with concrete action on key environmental challenges and meet their expectations for responsible and effective government measures to secure a cleaner and healthier environment for themselves and their children. I have five children and four grandchildren, and I want them to be able to inherit a clean environment. That's why I am so proud to be part of a government that is actually cleaning up the environment for the coming generation.
The economic costs associated with our Turning the Corner plan, which we see in the plan but not in Bill C-377, are real and manageable. The benefits of our plan are equally real but in many respects incalculable—cleaner communities and natural spaces, healthier children, fewer premature deaths, more sustainable natural resources, and for the first time since signing the Kyoto Protocol, meaningful contributions by Canada to the global effort to control greenhouse gas emissions.
The $6.4 billion a year in health benefits that will accrue under this initiative is significant on its own, yet it represents only a portion of the health and environmental gains that Canadians will receive. The cost-benefit analysis demonstrates that the proposed regulatory package we now have in Canada's Turning the Corner plan presents a responsible path forward. It'll enable Canada to address climate change and air pollution without putting Canada's quality of life and economy at risk.
It is equitable across regions and economic sectors. It respects the polluter-pay principle. It puts in place for the first time in Canada a regulatory policy that can be fine-tuned to meet climate change and air quality objectives as we move forward. Most important, it provides Canadian businesses and citizens with the economic signals required to take into account the environmental consequences of daily decisions— whether it's choosing more environmentally efficient appliances or deciding to construct a new plant that uses renewable energy instead of fossil fuels.
Canadians have long demanded that their government provide the leadership and tools necessary to enable them to better manage climate change and air quality as responsible citizens. Canada's new government is responding to this, and we've moved forward with our comprehensive, realistic, and achievable plan.
Our regulatory framework for air pollutants, including the timeframe for the entry into force of regulations, is well under way. Sector-specific regulations are being developed, leading to publication of the draft regulations in the Canada Gazette, Part I. The regulations will be revised to incorporate the air pollutant provisions a few months later, following normal regulatory procedures.
The government intends to undertake a series of consultations, and it has been doing that. We have none of that in Bill C-377. We need, for this generation and for generations on, to provide leadership.
Mr. Cullen--I wish he were here, but I guess he has stepped out and been replaced--made a comment when the commissioner was here that it was the opposition's focus to try to make the government fail on the environmental file. Fortunately for the Canadian environment, for Canadians, and for the globe, they haven't been successful. We are moving forward. The Turning the Corner plan, by regulation, is forcing the industrial sectors to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, with the toughest targets in Canadian history.
Bill C-377 will not achieve greenhouse gas emissions because it's a plan that is void of substance. It's a plan that will not withstand constitutional challenge. It does not include enforcement. It's a plan that won't work.
The irony is that the author of the bill, or the sponsor of the bill...well, actually, both the author and sponsor were witnesses here, and both of them said that the bill needs to be costed and we need an impact analysis. We heard that from every witness group. Yet now we're hearing from the NDP representative that they don't want to do that. They want Bill C-377 to move ahead just for reasons of optics.
The time for optics, Chair, is over. Canadians want action. They're getting action. We are reducing greenhouse gas emissions. That's what Canadians want, that's what they're getting, and that's why we will not be supporting Bill C-377.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, we're just wanting to know if it's legal for the NDP to use replacement workers here. Is this all approved? Is it legal to do that?
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
They filled in the form and delivered it to the clerk, so yes, it is.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
Maurice Vellacott Conservative Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK
Mr. Cullen is not here, so they're using a replacement worker in place of him.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
You can replace anybody with anybody, as long as you have the proper documentation.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
8:55 p.m.
Liberal
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
At one point Mr. Vellacott had advised me to go ahead, but....
Mr. Harvey is next, please, then Mr. Watson, and then Mr. Vellacott.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Chairman, I would ask Mr. Martin to put on his headset. I have a few questions for him regarding the bill tabled by the NDP.
8:55 p.m.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
At the same time, I would ask your member to return to his seat.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Mr. Martin, when Bill C-377 was tabled, Mr. Layton indicated that there should be...
8:55 p.m.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
I think my colleague is sufficiently well versed in the rules of procedure to know that he must speak to the chair, and not directly to a committee member seated at this table. I would ask you to remind him of the rules of procedure that apply here.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Mills
I've corrected Mr. Harvey a number of times, Mr. Bigras, so thank you.
Mr. Harvey, please address all your questions to the chair.
8:55 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.
I have a question for the NDP member. The Leader of the NDP, Mr. Layton, tabled Bill C-377, but everyone acknowledges that a cost study and a feasibility study should be carried out in connection with this bill.
