Environment Committee on May 26th, 2008

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The meeting will come to order. This is a meeting of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. We are undertaking the study of Bill C-474 of Mr. Godfrey. We're delighted that Mr. Warawa and Mr. Godfrey have arrived, and have done, I gather, a bit of negotiating in relation to some amendments. I trust that this delay will help to shorten the meeting in some fashion.

Before we begin, I want to ask if we have agreement to the following motion, which the clerk has offered to the committee regarding what will happen on Wednesday in view of the fact that Minister Baird is not available since he'll be travelling.

The motion would be:

THAT THE COMMITTEE consider the Main Estimates 2008-2009 and invite the following to appear before it on May 28, 2008,

The Associate Deputy Minister of Environment Canada (supported by his officials); and

The President of the National Round Table on Environment and Economy (supported by his officials); and

The chief executive officer of the national parks agency (supported by his officials);

and President of the Canadian Environmental Evaluation Agency (supported by officials); and

That the Department and Agencies be allotted 8 to 10 minutes for presentation.

That is the motion, and I think my reading of that would mean that they'd each get eight to ten minutes for a presentation. I know some people may have some views on that, and I look forward to hearing them.

Would someone like to propose this motion so we can have what I would hope would be a very quick discussion on it? It is available on paper, and it is being circulated as we speak.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I so move.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Nathan.

Mr. Cullen has moved the motion. Is there any discussion on the motion?

Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, just on Friday this week I heard that the minister wasn't coming. Didn't we have a work plan? Did the parliamentary secretary or the full-time chair get confirmation that the minister was coming to the meeting on Wednesday?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'd have to ask the clerk.

Was there any confirmation the minister was coming on Wednesday?

That may be a matter for the parliamentary secretary to respond to, but your question was whether there was confirmation to the committee about whether the minister was coming.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Normand Radford]

Mr. Chair, there was no confirmation. In fact, there was a reverse of a confirmation. I was informed that the minister was travelling and that unfortunately he would not be able to appear on Wednesday, in which case we then presented three options to each party to look at.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

My recollection was that we had a work plan that we had all agreed to, and that included the minister showing up on Wednesday, which is the last possible day for him to appear to report the main estimates back to the House. Then I heard late on Friday that he's apparently not available. I'm not sure what's transpired here, but it's rather remarkable.

Chair, could I then raise the question here about who would come? I think offline you informed me--at least, in a discussion just moments ago, for those who did not hear it--that the deputy minister is not available to attend on Wednesday. I think from our side here the official opposition strongly supports the notion of having officials here on Wednesday.

I have a personal concern here, as a member, that we look at potentially four speakers speaking for ten minutes each out of the two-hour session. That seriously encroaches on time for questions, and for answers, and I would propose instead that there be a single overview or presentation made by the associate deputy, Mr. Shugart, I understand, on behalf of the three other agencies, even though the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy does not report to the Minister of the Environment and ought not to be reporting to the Minister of the Environment. It's a PCO-based institution, not a part of Environment Canada. I'm not sure why it's even on this list, for that matter.

But hopefully my colleagues would agree that maybe a 10-minute overview from the associate deputy would be sufficient so we could have the time we would probably like to have to ask those questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is that a motion to amend?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

It is a motion to amend.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

It was a few weeks ago that I reported to the committee that the only day the minister was available for the estimates was on the 28th. So as of three or four weeks ago, that was the plan.

As we all know, things have to be very fluid and are very fluid here. The minister is in Kobe now and will be meeting with the Prime Minister in Germany for the COP 9 meeting. Unfortunately, he's not going to be able to be with us.

I do have a question, through you, Mr. Chair, regarding Mr. McGuinty's amendment. My focus was more on the minister not being able to be here. Did I understand, in his amending motion, that he does not want the NRTEE to be represented?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I didn't hear that. Mr. McGuinty indicated that the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy doesn't report to the Minister of the Environment, as he understands it. It's a Privy Council institution. Therefore, he's asking why it was appropriate. He did not say it should not be here.

What he said was that he's proposing in his motion to amend that the associate deputy minister would be the only person to make a presentation of up to ten minutes. That's what he's proposing, rather than having four people each make eight- to ten-minute presentations.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

He's suggesting only one witness.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

No. He's saying rather than having the first 40 minutes taken up with presentations....

[The Clerk]

Mr. Chair, perhaps we can do the following. We will check to make sure that the estimates concerning the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy are in front of this committee. If they are not in front of this committee, then it would be appropriate not to invite them. If I have permission from the committee to do that, that would be fine.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is that agreed?

Mr. Warawa, did you hear that?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

No, I'm sorry.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The clerk was just saying that he will check on whether or not the estimates of the National Round Table are in fact before the committee. If not, it wouldn't be appropriate to have them here on Wednesday, obviously, on the estimates, but if they are, then we would leave them on the list.

The question is whether or not that's agreeable to the committee. Est-ce qu'on est d'accord? We're talking about that question alone.

It seems obvious.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Would we have the ADM and CEOs?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The question is whether or not you have a representative of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. If their estimates have not been sent to us by the House, then it wouldn't make much sense to have them when we're doing our job on the estimates.

That's the point, and that's what the clerk is suggesting he find out and act accordingly on.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

So on the amendment by Mr. McGuinty, who will be witnesses?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

He didn't change the witnesses at all. His amendment basically said that the associate deputy minister would be the person to make the presentation on behalf of all of the witnesses, for eight to ten minutes.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

And why would we not allow each witness an opportunity to testify?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

As I indicated earlier, he mentioned that rather than taking up as much as the first 40 minutes of the meeting with all these presentations, you could have one presentation from the associate deputy minister—I gather the deputy minister is off on paternity leave—who is acting as deputy and who is overseeing all of this. That's the idea.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

It's quite common that we have half an hour of witnesses, and then the next hour and a half is an opportunity for us to ask questions of the witnesses. So what's being proposed is that you have 10 minutes of witness presentation time instead of 30 to 40 minutes. That 10 minutes would be for one person and would be instead of half an hour of witnesses.