Evidence of meeting #14 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Scott Vaughan  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Richard Arseneault  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Paul Morse  Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the environment commissioner and to his officials for appearing before committee.

I will go right to a sentence from your opening statement: “In 2005, we observed that Health Canada had stopped all of its routine inspections of drinking water quality on commercial passenger aircraft.” Your statement is not specific as to when those inspections were ceased--or when they were resumed, for that matter. Do we have a more specific timeline as to when those were stopped and when they were resumed?

10:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

I can get you the specific date, but I believe they ceased around 1995 and resumed in 2006.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

I would like you to provide a follow-up and isolate for the committee when those inspections were in fact stopped, if you would.

10:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Further, could you describe for the committee the improvements that have been made in implementing the Health Canada guidelines for Canadian drinking water quality in national parks and historic sites since your original work in 2005?

10:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

I'll let Mr. Arseneault elaborate, but I will say that when we looked at what Parks Canada was doing--this was important, because 22 million visitors each year go to different facilities--we said that Parks Canada had a system in place that actually was aligned with the central guidelines developed by Health Canada. They had good systems in place in order to provide assurance that the drinking water available at those facilities was in accordance with assuring the safety of drinking water.

10:15 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Richard Arseneault

In response to the question, when we visited some of these sites, we also asked for specific data to show us what they were doing. What they were doing aligned very well with the guidance issued by Health Canada in late 2005, after our audit. Their procedures also corresponded very well with the central guidance that Health Canada issued. That's why we concluded, based on the sample we looked at, that Parks Canada was doing a good job.

When we looked at Correctional Services, we saw that there were some issues; they hadn't fully updated their guidance.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

I detect that's a bit of a trend with Parks Canada in a number of areas, as we've seen them audited or dealing with other issues.

Let me move to the air quality health index. I think you referred to the consultation process for the development of the AQHI as a sort of model for other programs. Could you elaborate on that? Secondly, did you contemplate where else that type of model could be applied?

10:15 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

Thank you.

As Mr. Morris has noted, there are different guidelines from Treasury Board and elsewhere on what effective consultations are. We found that this program both met and exceeded those guidelines. It sought the views of different stakeholders, including non-governmental and private sector associations. It engaged provinces, municipalities, and territories. So in developing a program that will be used by the public, getting as much public input into the development of that program and index is an extremely important step. That's why we went out of our way to denote this.

On how a similar process could be used, you may want to ask Environment Canada or other departments. Clearly there are programs that are moving all the time, and I very strongly believe that seeking meaningful public participation and public input in this program only makes for a better program in the end.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

I ask about that because there must have been some contemplation that it should be applied elsewhere. You say it's a model, so would you like to see that model expanded for use elsewhere?

10:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

I can name specific programs under way that are seeking scientific input. They're actually looking at getting the resources of public organizations. You could go through the gamut of biodiversity strategies, climate adaptation policies, water responsibilities, and others, and each one of those would have a consultative process of some sort in place.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

I want to ask an interesting question. I've now been on this committee for nearly five years. One of the things I've noticed in very recent responses from departments to recommendations is that timelines are being issued for certain actions, with general expectations of when they expect to deliver on something. I'm not sure I recall seeing that in reports four or five years ago. I don't know if that's a trend you've discerned or not.

You may or may not want to speculate on that. I'll leave it for the record if you don't.

10:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

10:20 a.m.

Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Paul Morse

In the past year our office has issued a new guide for entity relations. The Auditor General had discussions with the Secretary of the Treasury Board and they agreed, with some other deputy ministers and so on, to include in this guide that recommendations from our office be responded to in that way. That will definitely make it easier for us to follow up on status reports, and it will make it easier for you to call them to account if you bring them to a committee hearing.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Braid.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Commissioner Vaughan, Mr. Morse, and Mr. Arseneault, for being here this morning and giving us this very thorough report highlighting the progress that the government is making on the safety of drinking water and on the air quality health index.

Starting with the safety of drinking water, you indicated in the report that under the previous government, in 2005 there was a backlog of 50 guidelines that needed to be cleared. Significant progress has been made on clearing that backlog, but how many are left to be reviewed?

10:20 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

We have actually gone out of our way not to say a backlog, but I think there are over 50 that have yet to be reviewed. As important as clearing the backlog, though, is the need to have a system in place in order to reveal the priorities that the department has in place. What Health Canada has said is, first, they've cleared the backlog, and second, they've set up a priority with a schedule. So what they are committed to do is to look at 30 before 2011, which is actually an accelerated timetable. That would be based on risk, so the most important ones will be addressed between now and 2011.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Excellent. Thank you for that clarification.

With respect to the inspection of drinking water on commercial passenger aircraft, the monitoring of drinking water on passenger aircraft was ceased under the previous government. It has since been resumed. You go on to indicate, however, that current coverage still remains incomplete. Could you help me to understand what work still needs to be done to close that gap?

10:25 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

Thank you.

There are three. The first one, as the chair mentioned, is smaller carriers. That would simply be to say, does the department know the extent of the regulated population? The second one would be foreign carriers landing in Canadian airports and departing from Canada, which would then presumably include Canadian passengers. They are not all subject to inspections. Third would be the airports themselves, which are also under federal responsibility, for which we've noted that there seems not to be a systematic inspection system in place. That would be for food services going onto the airplanes for which water may then pose a potential risk. We're not saying there are risks; we're saying that there should be a system and inspection in place.

Those would be the three.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much.

Are you aware of any work under way at Health Canada with respect to addressing one or all of these three areas?

10:25 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

Let me ask Monsieur Arseneault to follow up on this.

10:25 a.m.

Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Richard Arseneault

We made a recommendation, and the department agreed with the recommendation and is working on it, but we don't know what they've done recently. However, they agreed with us that there was a gap and that they were going to work toward filling that gap over time.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Very good, thank you.

Finally, under the category of the safety of drinking water and the revision of the food and drugs regulations, you indicate that those need to be updated to reference the guidelines for drinking water. Is that simply an updating process, a communications process? What is involved? What needs to be achieved there?

10:25 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Scott Vaughan

I am sure Health Canada and CFIA would probably be better placed in terms of how complex this is, but it is fairly complex in terms of the inclusion of the guidelines, actually. There are thresholds involved, so it would be a complicated process. It's not a matter of simply taking a document and then including it within the existing regulations.