Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray R. Gray  Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Selma Guigard  Associate Professor, Environmental Engineering Program, University of Alberta, As an Individual
William F. Donahue  Independent Researcher, Limology and Biogeochemistry, As an Individual
David Schindler  Professor of Ecology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Mary Griffiths  As an Individual
Jim Boucher  Chief, Fort McKay First Nation
Roxanne Marcel  Chief, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Georges Poitras  Consultation Coordinator, Government and Industry Relations, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Allan Adam  Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Bill Erasmus  Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations
Albert Mercredi  Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
François Paulette  Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
Sam Gargan  Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
Diane McDonald  Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council
J. Michael Miltenberger  Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Hassan Hamza  Director General, Department of Natural Resources, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon
Thomas Gradek  President, Gradek Energy Inc.
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you very much, all of you, for your presentations. Masi cho.

I will start with Chief Boucher to stay in order. We flew over Fort McKay yesterday morning, and it was pointed out to us that many or most of the citizens living in Fort McKay are in the employ of the oil sands projects and development. Is that indeed the case?

You mentioned that you had lost 60% of your traplines to mine sites, for example. Has there been a shift in lifestyle and in work for the people of Fort McKay?

11:50 a.m.

Chief, Fort McKay First Nation

Chief Jim Boucher

Yes, that's correct. When the animal fur activists were successful in the fur ban in the 1980s, our community had no economic means of being sustainable any more. The only opportunities we had for employment were with the resource extraction industry, so we changed our focus with respect to economic opportunities. We have been very successful with respect to obtaining employment for our people as well as with obtaining contracts for our companies. We're one of the more successful entities in the region. We're still struggling, of course, with the economic interests versus the environmental effects and we're dealing with that on a constant basis.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you.

You mention also in your brief that the water management framework was perhaps not being followed—“the lack of effects on key regulatory decisions” is the language you use—for water management. Is it your perception and conclusion that the existing water management framework isn't being applied, or isn't sufficient?

11:55 a.m.

Chief, Fort McKay First Nation

Chief Jim Boucher

I presume you're talking about the IFN stream flow needs in respect to this question. We were engaged in early 2005, I believe—I have some correspondence regarding this—when the decision was made at the Energy Resource Conservation Board level with respect to an application by Shell Canada and CNRL. The recommendation that came out of that was that the IFN number would be set by CEMA. Well, CEMA undertook the exercise and didn't come up with a number for the IFN that would be protective of the fisheries and the ecosystem in the Athabasca River basin.

DFO made a commitment that they would set the standard, if CEMA was not able to come up with a number within a set timeframe. The timeframe expired, and DFO came up with a proposition, which we supported initially—without any scientific basis, but it was more protective of the interests of the Athabasca River system. We agreed that this should be the number on an interim basis while the scientific work was conducted on the Athabasca River.

Alberta Environment got involved in the exercise, as well as the industry folks in Calgary. My understanding is that a meeting occurred between industry and Alberta Environment. They raised concerns with respect to the proposal by DFO. As a result of that meeting, the numbers were changed regarding what the targets were going to be.

As a result, we lost faith in DFO's setting the targets, the instream flow need number, which was protecting the Athabasca River. We also asked for more scientific work to be done with respect to the Athabasca River system so that we could protect the ecological integrity of the river. No work has been done with our community to establish this since that point in time.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you.

Here is a question for Chief Adam. I'm jumping ahead, as I have too many questions for the time given. This concerns the reliance on country food by elders and people in your community.

We talked about this yesterday. When you go out onto the land, it is now the practice to bring bottled water or jugs of water with you, because you're no longer able to drink from rivers and streams that you cross and travel through. Is concern about consuming food off the land that is itself dependent on rivers and streams you're not drinking from linked to the health problems you're bringing forward?

11:55 a.m.

Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation

Chief Allan Adam

That is what we are assuming at this point in time, that all related health issues in regard to rare diseases that are coming into the community are from the water in the area, because of the massive body of water we live beside. We still go out to the land and harvest from the land.

Back in the late eighties, we began to notice in the community that people had started bringing water from Fort Chipewyan to the bush, because they would no longer drink the water from Lake Athabasca, and from the rivers as well, because something was going on and they just weren't too sure. They don't trust the water any more, ever since then.

That's the issue that's always been coming up: the water issue. When you ask community members what is the cause of all these problems, most likely ten out of ten would tell you it's related to a water issue.

Noon

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Chief Adam.

We'll now go to Mr. Ouellet.

Noon

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I thank you.

I'll be very short, because I don't have any specific question. You were very clear this morning. I thank you very much for coming again; I think you made some of your points even more clearly than yesterday.

I think the most important thing is to remember what you said and to remember that the treaty is between two nations. I shall do my best about that, because I think you're right.

Thank you very much for coming.

Noon

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Ouellet.

Ms. Duncan.

Noon

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again for your presentations and for the time you gave to us yesterday. It's very much appreciated.

I wonder whether the chiefs could provide to us at a later date maps showing where your traditional lands and your reserves are, because the question was raised yesterday and it's raised here today on the record. Regrettably, we don't have available to us the maps showing these. I think it would be helpful, if we could actually see....

Oh, we have the Treaty 8, but it would be important to see both the traditional harvesting areas and also where the actual reserve lands are. I think that would be really helpful to us.

I have a couple of questions.

I think it was you, Chief Adam—or was it the Mikisew Cree?—who raised the issue about the lack of community-based monitoring.

Was it you, Chief Adam?

Noon

Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation

Noon

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It's a very important point, and I'm happy that you raised it.

I used to be on the board that provides a program for training for first nations in how to do community-based monitoring, but it has been pointed out to me that it's a rather senseless practice, if the funds aren't then made available to have you deliver the monitoring program. I wonder whether you could elaborate a bit more on that.

To be efficient, I'll just put out my second question, because you might want to connect the two. It's my understanding that you want to initiate community-based monitoring. I'm presuming it's for the fishery, the wildlife, the water quality, and possibly air quality, but perhaps also health studies. I'll let you elaborate on that.

My second area of questioning, and I'll leave this to each of the chiefs to speak to, is on the health study. Something I remain puzzled about is that it's my understanding that Health Canada is responsible for helping to finance and support health services for first nations peoples, and yet when issues have been raised, it's the Alberta Cancer Board that has done the study.

Perhaps you can explain to me how that filtered down to a provincial agency. But I want to know whether you have ever been consulted on the methodology, the terms, and so forth for these studies.

Secondly, as the cancer board has said, there need to be follow-up studies on some of the cancer rates. Are you being consulted in those follow-up studies, on methodologies, timing, and so on?

Noon

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Chief Adam.

Noon

Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation

Chief Allan Adam

It relates to the community-based monitoring program. We've been talking about community-based monitoring numerous times at different tables in order to raise this issue. Regardless of the health issues in Fort Chipewyan and the extensive development in the region, it was only apparent to us that we needed to conduct a community-based monitoring program in the community of Fort Chipewyan when all of the issues were coming out.

As I said earlier, in order for us to conduct our findings to give solutions to the problems it's only adequate that we provide fair information to the public. Without funding in place, we cannot do that. We wanted to take samples of water, sediment, vegetation, air quality, and food from the wild game in the region to conduct our findings and to pick a certain area where we thought the problems could be occurring. If we came up with findings, then we would look at a methodology to try to find a solution to fix the problem. That was the reason we pushed for it.

Somewhere along the line, there was the misconception that we were trying to dig up findings for legal action in the future. The only reason legal action is being considered for the future is that nothing is being done at this point in time in regards to the issues. When nothing is being done and we feel we're being neglected, what other means do we have to turn to? We have no other means but to turn to the court system.

That's why we need the community-based monitoring program. We need to train our people to monitor certain areas. When I talk about monitoring, I'm talking about picking an area and constantly using that area for three years. You cannot pick one area, then walk away from it, and then go and pick another area, because you will not then know what is happening on a year-to-year basis in the first area. Different areas will have different findings, and so you have to keep going back. That's how you do your analysis and that's how scientists do their analysis today.

We use the format of providing general information. You don't have to be rocket scientist to develop proper guidelines; all you need is common sense, and we all have common sense. When we neglect common sense, the problems start here, there, and everywhere. Therefore, I can speak to community-based monitoring.

I think Chief Marcel, or Georges, could elaborate more on the health issues.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Chief Adam.

We'll now have to move to Mr. Warawa, if that is all right, because Ms. Duncan's six minutes are up.

Mr. Warawa.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming to the committee.

I had a chance to meet many of you yesterday at Fort Chipewyan. Thank you for your efforts to come down to the committee.

Where do each of the communities you represent get their drinking water, and how is it tested? Who is doing the testing?

I'll maybe start with Chief Erasmus.

12:05 p.m.

Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations

Chief Bill Erasmus

We get our drinking water from the Yellowknife River, which fortunately flows the other way; it comes from the barren lands, and we're downstream. The water from the Mackenzie River water basin goes into Great Slave Lake, but we don't consume that water. So we're fortunate that we don't have to take water from this basin we're talking about.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Who does the testing of the water?

12:05 p.m.

Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations

Chief Bill Erasmus

There are federal-territorial monitoring systems in place. As far as I know, we as first nations are also engaged. It's quite a different regime in the Northwest Territories, as you probably know.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

You're saying the testing is federal.

12:05 p.m.

Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations

Chief Bill Erasmus

Primarily it is, yes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

Thank you.

Go ahead, Chief Adam.

12:05 p.m.

Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation

Chief Allan Adam

We get our drinking water from Lake Athabasca. Our intake valve is situated down by Monument Hill. It comes out from the Athabasca River into Lake Athabasca, which in turn goes downstream from there, where it passes through the community of Fort Chipewyan. We get our drinking water directly from Lake Athabasca.

The testing that's done is being conducted by the municipality. They govern the water. It's municipally regulated. They send it out on a daily basis to certain labs in the area, probably U of A or other labs. They just look for basic contaminants like E. coli or stuff like that, but they don't conduct thorough investigations into the source, so the community always raises the issue that maybe it's time to move the intake valve from Lake Athabasca somewhere instream or to an inland lake to provide safe drinking water for the community.

Only then would they feel secure, but at this point in time they just don't feel secure about it. We have no choice but to drink the water from the tap. A bottle of water is $3. That's just 750 millilitres of water, not even one litre, but we pay $3 for that.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC

What's the result of the testing by the municipality on the water? Are they saying it's safe to drink?

12:10 p.m.

Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation

Chief Allan Adam

They're saying it's safe to drink. It's safe water to drink and everything like that, but then we have a different issue in that area. Because of all the heavy metals they're not testing for, we feel the testing and results in that area are inadequate. That's why the community wants the intake valve to be removed from the area where it's situated now.