Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray R. Gray  Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Selma Guigard  Associate Professor, Environmental Engineering Program, University of Alberta, As an Individual
William F. Donahue  Independent Researcher, Limology and Biogeochemistry, As an Individual
David Schindler  Professor of Ecology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Mary Griffiths  As an Individual
Jim Boucher  Chief, Fort McKay First Nation
Roxanne Marcel  Chief, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Georges Poitras  Consultation Coordinator, Government and Industry Relations, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Allan Adam  Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Bill Erasmus  Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations
Albert Mercredi  Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
François Paulette  Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
Sam Gargan  Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
Diane McDonald  Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council
J. Michael Miltenberger  Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Hassan Hamza  Director General, Department of Natural Resources, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon
Thomas Gradek  President, Gradek Energy Inc.
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

1:35 p.m.

Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual

Sam Gargan

Yes, I'm skipping some.

There are those who died, those who are ill, and those who are living downstream. What about those who depend on the wildlife? What are we doing? Committee members, we desperately need your strength and your foresight in determining that the survival of mankind is at stake. Therefore, half measures are no longer an option. Bold action is required now.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you, and I wish you all the best in your deliberations.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Gargan.

We'll start our first round of seven-minute questions with Mr. Trudeau.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for the presentations.

I think one of the things we spend a lot of time talking about around here is the Alberta situation and the oil sands exploitation, but could I ask you, Chief Mercredi, to talk a little bit about the Saskatchewan provincial government? Does the relationship seem to you to be similar to what we've heard in terms of the behaviour and the partnership with both the federal and the Alberta governments?

I know from the last time I was up in your area that there are still plenty of uranium mines. Are there any current oil sands explorations upstream of Stony Rapids, for example, other than the ones upstream on the Athabasca?

1:40 p.m.

Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual

Chief Albert Mercredi

To the left, you see the Athabasca land use vision planning process area; on the southwest corner, in the Axe Lake area, we're pretty well adjacent to the Athabasca Sand Dunes, which are one of the seven magnificent sights in the world to see. There is oil in that area.

On the question about the relations with the current Government of Saskatchewan, there is no protocol system in place by the province on what was handed down by the federal government during the 1930s mineral transfer agreement. To this day, there has been no duty to consult and accommodate. As a result, we initiated our own protocol system, which we gave to CNSC last week during the public hearing in Ottawa. It's our version of the protocol system and how we want to do business and how the consultation process should work.

As of June 1, 2009, the Province of Saskatchewan will be coming up with its protocol system on the duty to consult and accommodate. The process had been taken on for a lot of years without any kind of policy from industry, nor the Province of Saskatchewan, to accommodate the needs of first nations in the region they do development in. We have five existing uranium mines just southwest of the Fond du Lac, and currently there are deposits that could go on for the next three or four decades.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you.

The land use planning area in Saskatchewan that is designated was not done in partnership with the Saskatchewan government; it is your own designation. Is that it?

1:40 p.m.

Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual

Chief Albert Mercredi

It has been submitted to the Province of Saskatchewan. The Province of Saskatchewan was involved at stage one level. I have my coordinator here with me, who could answer a lot of these technical terms. Yes, it has been submitted, but to this day, there has been nothing from the province supporting our situation in the Athabasca.

We have brought that map on the watershed system for a reason. Regarding the tar sands that enter Lake Athabasca, we are one of the last communities on Lake Athabasca from the Fond du Lac and associated perspective. Our neighbouring community is Fort Chipewyan, in Alberta, and the Mikisew Cree First Nation is on the west side of Lake Athabasca.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for François. You've had a tremendous amount of experience, both in court challenges and in negotiations, over environmental issues and putting native groups and various levels of government into the discussion. What do you see as the outcome of this? Where do you think these conversations should go? How do you see the future shaping up in terms of this relationship we're working on?

1:45 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

François Paulette

Thank you.

From where I stand, in this house that I belong to, my Dene home, and looking outside of it, I know that it's the gold standard people who control the government. We need to really bring this discussion and the public forum to people who invest in these tar sands. We need to talk to people who are high-minded in money but have no relationship with the land. We need to talk to these people.

The government here, these officials, are elected by people who have money. You would have to be as tough as I am if you were going to make some hard decisions. I await that. I encourage you to take the discussions to heart, if you honestly believe in the survival of the investors that I talk about—that's the land, that's the water, that's the air, that's the fish, that's the moose, all of these creatures. I don't think this parliamentary discussion should end here. It should move on.

I just want to say one thing. There were 129 billion litres of water taken out in 2007. Right now, a bottle of water is $2 per litre of bottled water—this is quite modest. If you were to charge that for every litre, you would make $258 billion a year from the 129 billion litres of water you're taking out of the river. We are willing to pay—I'm willing to pay, and I pay—$2 a litre, but we undervalue the natural origin of the environment. Why aren't the tar sands paying for that water, as I am?

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you, Mr. Paulette. We have to move on.

Monsieur Ouellet, vous avez sept minutes, s'il vous plaît.

1:45 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I'm going to speak in French.

Before asking my questions, I'm going to say that I very much appreciated your presentation, Mr. Paulette.

I would just like to make one comment, without however diminishing what you said about the life that is being destroyed on the reserves. I get the impression that the entire “developed” world is destroying the entire planet in any case. With greenhouse gases, we are putting ourselves in a situation in which, very soon, there may be no more humanity. We share the same view on that subject.

You mentioned this map. You were 150 to 200 miles from Fort McMurray. Are there any rapids along that distance?

1:50 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

1:50 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Don't the rapids normally clean water?

I did a lot of canoeing when I was young. People said that, when water flows over a distance of three miles through rapids—we used miles at the time—it's pure when it gets to the bottom, whatever its previous condition was.

Have you noticed a change in the quality of water after it passes through the rapids?

1:50 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

François Paulette

There are rapids where I live in Fort Fitzgerald, four major sets of rapids. As for these rapids cleaning the water, that might have been possible maybe 100 years ago, but not today, because the water is too low. You need a huge flush, and we do not have that right now. On Friday at precisely 1:15 p.m, I witnessed the river breaking up . The water is very low. The ice went and the water dropped in about half an hour. There was still ice on the shores of the river, and that's very unusual. The natural phenomena that normally take place don't happen right now.

1:50 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Paulette, you said that you recently saw ice. However, during the summer, isn't the water warmer than it previously was? Have you taken the temperature of the water? It seems to me that may be one of the reasons why the fish are of lesser quality. If there's less water, could the water temperature be higher?

1:50 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

François Paulette

Not this past winter. But the winter before, the river didn't freeze until January 31. From where I live in Fitzgerald on to about 14 miles up the river, there was open water all the way. Normally you could walk across the river by November. People couldn't get to their trap lines, couldn't do any hunting, couldn't do any fishing. That indicates to me that the water is warmer.

1:50 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Mr. Chairman, do I still have some time left?

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes, absolutely.

1:50 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

If the companies didn't operate on site, if they didn't remove earth, which they must subsequently clean, do you think the river could be clean again?

1:50 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

François Paulette

No, I think it's gone beyond fixing.

1:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

In your opinion, the entire river bed is polluted. That's why, even though they have stopped polluting at Fort McMurray, the river is still polluted. Is that what you think?

1:55 p.m.

Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual

François Paulette

There are other factors. If you were to stop what is happening in McMurray, there would still be this big huge pond. There is pollution there, and it is still going underground. There are other factors like the pulp mills up the river. They're there, that's reality, but to raise the water back to where it was, no, that would not happen.

1:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Perhaps Mr. Mercredi could also answer my question. Are there any uranium mines on the reserve?

1:55 p.m.

Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual

Chief Albert Mercredi

Fond du Lac has no uranium mines on the reserve, but we do have exploration activity with a partnership we had joined to do exploration activity on reserve.

1:55 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I suppose my time is up.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

In fact, yes, it is.

Ms. Duncan.