Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray R. Gray  Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Selma Guigard  Associate Professor, Environmental Engineering Program, University of Alberta, As an Individual
William F. Donahue  Independent Researcher, Limology and Biogeochemistry, As an Individual
David Schindler  Professor of Ecology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Mary Griffiths  As an Individual
Jim Boucher  Chief, Fort McKay First Nation
Roxanne Marcel  Chief, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Georges Poitras  Consultation Coordinator, Government and Industry Relations, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Allan Adam  Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Bill Erasmus  Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations
Albert Mercredi  Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
François Paulette  Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
Sam Gargan  Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
Diane McDonald  Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council
J. Michael Miltenberger  Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Hassan Hamza  Director General, Department of Natural Resources, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon
Thomas Gradek  President, Gradek Energy Inc.
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

2:45 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Not at this point. This strategy has consumed a significant amount of our resources. We're a small jurisdiction. While we're aware of the pollutants coming out of the air—from industry, coal-fired plants, and major dust storms—it's just another issue on our list. We're trying to get through this in an orderly fashion, and we're focusing first on getting our policy thinking clear so we can move forward.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Are you recommending increased involvement on the part of the federal government in both strategy and monitoring?

2:50 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

I went to a conference in Canmore that looked at all these issues. Hydrological monitoring has identified tremendous gaps across the land—right from the headwaters, in every direction from what is hydrologically the highest point in Canada, somewhere just outside of Canmore. There are huge gaps in our knowledge about the headwaters, all that flows downstream, and our groundwater. We have an enormous challenge as a country to sort this out, and some jurisdictions are going to be in dire straits, probably much sooner than they thought.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Braid.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you, Deputy Premier, for travelling to Edmonton today and for participating in our hearings.

What are the sources of the impacts on the water systems in the Northwest Territories?

2:50 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

About 70% of the water that comes into the Mackenzie River Basin comes through the Slave River, which for the most part is made up of the Athabasca and the Peace. About 30% comes from the Athabasca and about 70% comes from the Peace River. So we have concerns right from the headwaters, from what's happening in the mountains, to the actual flow. We are concerned about the cumulative impact of development in the Mackenzie River Basin, the climate change issues that are exacerbating some of the effects of that development, and managing the development properly.

I agree with a comment made by François Paulette that we in the Northwest Territories and also, I believe, in Alberta undervalue the water we supply for industrial use. We give out millions of gallons of water for the administrative cost of a licence. If we don't put a value on water, it will be perceived of as without value, as a limitless substance to be used in any way whatever. Simple things like that have to be looked at.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Are there any reports or sources of information that show trends or patterns with respect to the impacts on the water systems in the Northwest Territories? I appreciate that aboriginal peoples perceive impacts through their traditional knowledge, but what about scientific information?

2:50 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

We have to recognize that there are enormous gaps. The federal government has a few monitoring stations that perform some very basic measurements. But from the headwaters up the Mackenzie to the Arctic Ocean, there's very little monitoring of either the surface water or the surrounding groundwater. That's one of the challenges we have. We have all sorts of anecdotal reports. In the community where François and I live, two years ago the river was down about ten feet. Dr. Schindler has reported that in the prairie provinces the flows have diminished. The water that flows through the Peace and Athabasca down into the Slave and into the Mackenzie has diminished from 30% to 80%.

We know that when they built the Bennett Dam, the Peace-Athabasca Delta, which was then one of the biggest deltas in the world, was pretty well done away with. The only time it came back was when they had those sink holes in the Bennett Dam. They released all the water for a few years and the delta reflourished. We don't have much scientific information, so we're relying on what we're seeing and hearing, together with what little information is out there. That's one of our biggest collective challenges.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Finally, with respect to the national water management strategy, what's needed to kick-start that process and take it to the next level and get it going?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

I've been raising the issue. I was Minister of Environment and Natural Resources for some time in the last assembly as well. Politically it has to be raised at that table. There is a receptiveness there currently. The other thing that is going to push it is people squeezing their representatives to tell them they have to get a handle on this in every jurisdiction. They have to go to their elected officials, right from the community level on up, to start taking the steps, because it's not a matter that can be taken for granted.

We've all been learning that the hard way, in many cases.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We have time for a second round. I have a few questions, Deputy Premier.

I really enjoyed your testimony. In terms of basins in the Northwest Territories, other than the Mackenzie basin, how many other basins are there?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Within the Mackenzie River Basin, I believe there are about six sub-basins: the Peace, the Athabasca, the Peel, the Great Slave, the Great Bear, and the Liard.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

But other than the Mackenzie, there are no other ones? Does the Mackenzie River Basin cover all of it? How about Hudson Bay?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

The Mackenzie River Basin is the big area where the water drains. Within that, there are sub-basins. Right next door, to the east of us, is Hudson Bay.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

In terms of that, how much aquifer mapping has been done in the Northwest Territories?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Zero, that I'm aware of. It has been identified, and a report was released yesterday, which I read yesterday on the plane. There are huge gaps in groundwater mapping, and many jurisdictions. The transboundary agreement leaves out the Mackenzie River Basin. They don't even want to talk about it, unless it comes up through bilaterals.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I didn't get that point. Who doesn't want to talk about it?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

The transboundary agreement on the Mackenzie River Basin that was signed in 1997 is silent on the issue of groundwater. The one reference in it is that groundwater can be discussed if it's agreed to at the bilateral level between individual provinces or territories.

When you look at their strategies, most jurisdictions overlook groundwater.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yet aquifers cross provincial boundaries.

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

This brings me to the issue of the Mackenzie River Basin Transboundary Waters Master Agreement.

You say it should revitalized, and I agree. I'm just wondering how we can do that when you have parties to this agreement that won't even discuss shared aquifers. How can we revitalize the agreement? How can the federal government play a role in revitalizing the agreement when provinces and territories guard their jurisdictions so jealously.

What was the goal of the Mackenzie River Basin Transboundary Waters Master Agreement? Did it have any teeth from day one or was it just a press release—I'm not trying to be cynical or facetious—to show that governments were curious about water issues? Can some provisions be activated rather simply, or do we have to reopen it and renegotiate it? How can we do that to give it teeth?

What leadership role could the federal government play in either revitalizing the existing one or creating a new agreement?

2:55 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

The question, I think, could be phrased this way: how can the federal government not play a role? There are jurisdictions, some with competing interests, conflicting agendas. The federal government played a role when it was originally signed in 1997. It took a considerable number of years to get it to the signing point. It speaks to the issue of the need. It's not going to be easy. Water is a very difficult issue. Civilizations have risen and fallen on the issue of water. Wars have been fought. But the federal government has that ability and, I think, responsibility to bring us all back to the table.

We managed to have a meeting last July here in Edmonton. We wrote to the signatories--Alberta, British Columbia, and us--and we managed to get the ministers to the table. That's the first gathering since 1997. I've made the case to the Minister of the Environment as well as to the Minister of Indian Affairs that there's a need for the minister to call all the players together and put that document on the table. Let's talk about it. Let's dust it off and talk about how we can build off this document.

It's a different time, a different place. Enormous things have happened in the last dozen years. People are going to pay attention to that document. There's a need for us to recognize, collectively, that we have a huge vested interest, that our futures and fates are inextricably linked to the Mackenzie River Basin. And for the federal government in this jurisdiction, because it's the north where they have such responsibility, the responsibility is even greater.

So I've been pushing the federal, provincial, and territorial ministers, and I'm confident that within the next six months we will have the first-ever meeting of the Mackenzie River Basin signatories.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Who does the water monitoring in the Northwest Territories--the federal government or the Northwest Territories government on behalf of the federal government? It sounded as though you were saying there were very few monitoring stations.

3 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

There are very few monitoring stations. We test the water that we take out of waterways for municipal and community use. The other monitoring is done by the federal government.

The Mackenzie River Basin Board, as well, has tried to do some assessments of the aquatic ecosystems, and they've done reports, but with a budget of a quarter of a million dollars, the majority of which goes to the three staff, it's very difficult to do that kind of work. Senator Banks pointed out in his report that there has been a tremendous diminishment in federal resources to the appropriate departments in the federal government that do this work, and that if you looked at the shelf of research that's there for monitoring of surface water and/or groundwater, you would see enormous gaps; it's either outdated or non-existent.