Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray R. Gray  Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Selma Guigard  Associate Professor, Environmental Engineering Program, University of Alberta, As an Individual
William F. Donahue  Independent Researcher, Limology and Biogeochemistry, As an Individual
David Schindler  Professor of Ecology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Mary Griffiths  As an Individual
Jim Boucher  Chief, Fort McKay First Nation
Roxanne Marcel  Chief, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Georges Poitras  Consultation Coordinator, Government and Industry Relations, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Allan Adam  Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Bill Erasmus  Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations
Albert Mercredi  Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
François Paulette  Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
Sam Gargan  Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
Diane McDonald  Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council
J. Michael Miltenberger  Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Hassan Hamza  Director General, Department of Natural Resources, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon
Thomas Gradek  President, Gradek Energy Inc.
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Dr. Hamza, we had wanted Alberta Environment to testify, and they turned down our invitation. I guess I have an immediate question.

My understanding is that Alberta Environment is now going to require more return of water to the river. If the technologies are not yet proven to actually safely do that, how are the industries going to deliver on that new directive?

4:55 p.m.

Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

I haven't heard of any requirement. There's no return of water to the river right now. For the in situ operations, there's a new directive on increasing recycled water, but there's no mention of return of water to the river. As far as surface mining goes, I have not heard of any directive. I don't know the reference that you mentioned.

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

So I may have misunderstood. It was my understanding that because there are so many concerns about the falling level of the Athabasca, the government is saying that it's time to move forward and get some of this water back to the river.

But as far as you're aware.... You can't speak for them.

4:55 p.m.

Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

That may be the case, but I have not heard that.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Let's follow up on the point that you made about the Alberta government. Indeed, when news of our study surfaced or resurfaced about a month ago, I think it was the deputy premier--and maybe even the energy minister or environment minister, I can't remember—who said that they were looking forward to telling their story. They had a good news story to tell, yet something must have happened in the interim and they decided it was better not to testify. It would have been good to hear from them.

That is just for the record.

Mr. Calkins.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

I do have one quick question.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Go ahead.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

The slide, Mr. Gradek, on page 8 in your presentation, shows 180 kilograms of Ti02.... What is that?

4:55 p.m.

President, Gradek Energy Inc.

Thomas Gradek

Titanium dioxide, aluminum dioxide, and zirconium dioxide.

From the study undertaken by the Alberta government, those are co-products that exist in the oil sands deposits, and they get concentrated up into the fine tailings streams. They are oliophilic, so they adhere to the bitumen coating on the bead. So when we do the bead wash, they settle out.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

My question to you, then, before this gets to be too good to be true.... Dr. Schindler testified here today about the presence of not only these compounds but also the presence of things like cadmium, arsenic, and other heavy metals that naturally occur. Where would those particular metals be? Would they be in the water? Do they come off as a by-product as well, but you just didn't show them on the slide?

Could you give us some indication of how pure, how clean, the water is after they're separated from the bead?

5 p.m.

President, Gradek Energy Inc.

Thomas Gradek

Some of the heavy metals that you mentioned stay in the primary tails. They don't get drawn with the bitumen froth, because they're not oliophilic. So they remain there and the concentration is not increased whatsoever. They go back into the sand volume.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

To the dry stackable tailings, or whatever the end product--

5 p.m.

President, Gradek Energy Inc.

Thomas Gradek

The dike embankment construction, and so on.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Okay.

My last question is this. When it comes to the overall process that you've proposed on this slide, could you provide the committee with any knowledge that you have about the carbon footprint of your technology? We have to have 80°C at the end of the pipe. We have some processes here where we heat up the bitumen wash and so on. Could you provide the committee with...?

5 p.m.

President, Gradek Energy Inc.

Thomas Gradek

The carbon footprint?

The carbon intensity of a barrel of bitumen that will be extracted and generated from this process on a commercial scale is anticipated to be minus 828 megajoules per barrel, which is a net negative carbon intensity. It's the greenest fuel on this planet. It's not dirty oil. It's the cleanest oil.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much to all of you for your appearance. I think we've learned a lot on the technological side, to add to everything else.

I would like to tell members that the clerk has advised me that the bus is parked in front of Starbucks. We're off to the airport now, and we look forward to a good day of hearings in Calgary tomorrow.

Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.