Evidence of meeting #20 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technologies.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray R. Gray  Professor, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Selma Guigard  Associate Professor, Environmental Engineering Program, University of Alberta, As an Individual
William F. Donahue  Independent Researcher, Limology and Biogeochemistry, As an Individual
David Schindler  Professor of Ecology, University of Alberta, As an Individual
Mary Griffiths  As an Individual
Jim Boucher  Chief, Fort McKay First Nation
Roxanne Marcel  Chief, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Georges Poitras  Consultation Coordinator, Government and Industry Relations, Mikisew Cree First Nation
Allan Adam  Chief, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Bill Erasmus  Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations
Albert Mercredi  Chief, Fond du Lac First Nation, As an Individual
François Paulette  Fort Fitzgerald First Nation, As an Individual
Sam Gargan  Dehcho First Nation, As an Individual
Diane McDonald  Coordinator, Prince Albert Grand Council
J. Michael Miltenberger  Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories
Hassan Hamza  Director General, Department of Natural Resources, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon
Thomas Gradek  President, Gradek Energy Inc.
Kim Kasperski  Manager, Water Management, Department of Natural Resources

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Moving to other partners, involvement of industry, involvement of some of the NGOs and ENGOs, how are the working relationships with those various stakeholder groups?

2:30 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

For the most part, they've been very supportive. The Canadian Boreal Initiative has offered some money. We've had some interest from ATCO, but that's mainly to see what's being proposed because they're one of the proponents for the potential Slave River dam. But without exception, the NGOs see this as a very positive step forward.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Has industry been cooperative?

2:35 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

At this point, I think it's wait and see. The ATCO folks, as I indicated, have asked for a copy of our draft of what's being proposed, and they have given us some feedback. But for the most part, I think they're waiting to see what fruit comes from these efforts.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Do you have any international or other models of watershed management you're looking to in terms of helping inspire you with structure?

2:35 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

We've been working with Mr. Bob Sandford, who is the chair of the United Nations International Decade “Water for Life” in Canada. He has been extremely helpful.

We've been put in contact with the Rosenberg foundation, which is an international body that deals with water issues. It is working with us in the Northwest Territories on the strategy, the model we're considering. I've also done some reading on the trials and tribulations of those folks around the Nile River Basin and the various countries that have worked for about 150 years to sort themselves out. I think there is a lot to be learned from mistakes that we will hopefully not duplicate.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Justin Trudeau Liberal Papineau, QC

Thank you.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Mr. Ouellet.

2:35 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Premier, for coming to meet with us. I believe this is important, particularly when it comes to water. You mentioned a number of times the need for a national water policy. You aren't unaware that, in Quebec, we're going to fight a national water policy for all of Canada because Quebec already has one. Don't you think it would be better, since Canada is so diversified, to have policies by watershed? What do you think of that solution?

The federal government definitely has a role to play in water and even a role to play with regard to the United States. There is the question of boundary basins under various jurisdictions. If we proceeded by watershed, that would mean that we could group populations together. That could mean Americans, in this case, or perhaps the people of Alberta, the territories, Saskatchewan and also British Columbia, who would establish a policy by watershed. What do you think of that?

2:35 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

I think we have to do both. For example, we have very little understanding of groundwater mapping and aquifers. In the United States, the Ogallala Aquifer spans four or five states. I would suggest that we have the same situation in Canada. Once our groundwater mapping is done, we'll know the extent of the situation. We need to do this in the Mackenzie River Basin and in Quebec. Wherever there's a watershed, we need to have the ability to manage it.

But we also need some common standards. When we deal with provincial transboundary issues, we need the federal government to play a leadership role in bringing the jurisdictions together. When we deal with transboundary issues with the United States—and water is going to be increasingly important for both countries—then we are going to need to have a national presence.

I recognize the concern of Quebec, but when it comes to water, no jurisdiction is an island unto itself. That water moves. The water doesn't recognize political boundaries. It comes from the sky. It comes from upstream. It comes from the groundwater. We have to work out ways to manage that resource as a country.

2:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

In your presentation, you often mentioned climate change and water supply, as well as the significant changes that result therefrom. That is indeed the case, particularly with regard to rain. Rain will be abundant in certain regions of Canada and will leave other regions in a complete desert state.

Are you considering a structure in order to be able to manage climate change that will have as significant short-term effects as those of the oil sands?

2:40 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

We're going to have to figure out how we're going to respond. We have to adapt to things that are happening. We also have to take the strong steps necessary to mitigate what's causing climate change.

In our jurisdiction, the changes that we know are there didn't start in the Northwest Territories; they came from somewhere else. As Canadians, we have to do our part in the global scheme of things to manage the effect of climate change. Things like rain patterns, droughts, and snow patterns are changing. Rain comes in a deluge and then it's gone. We have invasive species coming north. B.C. has already struggled with the pine beetle.

There's a whole range of issues that are going to require us, as a country and as individual jurisdictions, to put our heads together. The western premiers have found that out. Provinces and states found that out when they formed their own climate groups to deal with climate change. We're going to have to do this together.

2:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Would the structure you're proposing be regional and would it include the First Nations, on an equal footing with the other governments?

2:40 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

We're going to need a range of structures, from the community to the national-international level, with all of the different levels being linked vertically and across. We definitely have to recognize the role of the aboriginal governments. In the Northwest Territories, they are one of the largest landowners. They have agreements that are unique. They are recognized as unique in our Constitution. We have to have room for everybody at the table.

2:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, sir.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Duncan.

2:40 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I want to thank you, Deputy Premier, for taking the time to come to Alberta to address us.

I feel that I need to apologize to you. We ought to have gone to the Northwest Territories so that we could hear from you and your government. We have had some of the first nations governments attend, but I know that there are lots of others along the river who would like to be heard.

I appreciate your mentioning the long-ago-signed-on-to Peace-Athabasca Delta and Mackenzie River Basin agreements. Those are now almost a quarter of a century old. Do you feel that it's necessary to sit down and completely revamp those agreements, or do you think we should be turning our attention to implementing, finally, the undertakings in those agreements?

2:40 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

If you put that agreement on the table and got agreement to open it up, I think it would look substantially different when the process was finished. I don't think any aboriginal government would be content to have the Northwest Territories or Alberta.... I think we have one representative per jurisdiction for aboriginal people.

On things like groundwater, I think we have to look at what has happened around the world. For example, in the Nile, after about 100 years of wars, fighting, feuding, and water boycotts, they realized that bilateral agreements don't work when you have to manage a water basin; you want to look at multilateral agreements.

But we do have that agreement as a starting point. It hasn't been fully implemented, and I've been suggesting that this is the place we should start, to see if we can revitalize it.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Has your government been directly consulted by the federal government in its reviews of the project approval and review processes for the tar sands?

2:45 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

Not to my knowledge. We're struggling to sort out the review processes for the pipeline within our own jurisdiction.

But that's why we're here. We recognized with the start of this government, the 16th assembly, about a year and a half ago now, that it is a fundamental issue and we have to get organized. We can't just sit silently by and not push the issue of watershed management in the Mackenzie River Basin agreement and the need to have these bilaterals implemented at this point.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Deputy Premier, do you think it's simply that so much has been given up by the federal government to the Alberta government over the years that we've lost sight that many downstream jurisdictions are potentially impacted by the development of the tar sands and that we may need to reconsider who has responsibility in addressing these developments into the future?

2:45 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

The federal government has some clear responsibilities in our jurisdiction when it comes to issues like water, and I have indicated the legal responsibility.

It gets back to the national water strategy and the need for the federal government to play a leadership role to make sure the processes are agreed to, that transboundary agreements can be resolved in an effective, fair, and timely manner, and to work with the jurisdictions to have those processes in place. It has a unique opportunity and role to do that better than it has.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

The federal government has undertaken, I think by the end of this year, to finally release its promised legislation to protect first nations' safe drinking water, but it is my understanding that this legislation is simply dealing with the treatment of the water and its distribution. Given the issues that have been raised in this review and what you've presented, particularly the issues you have for the provision of safe water to your first nations and other communities, do you think we should be expanding our look at whether we are adequately protecting the source water that is in turn to be regulated by this law?

2:45 p.m.

Deputy Premier and Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories

J. Michael Miltenberger

I think we have to once again look at that whole range.

For example, we were in Whitehorse a few months back and we signed a federal waste water agreement. Most jurisdictions have signed on to that. Of course, implementation will be the challenge. In our jurisdiction, we only have two small reserves. As a public government, we provide the services to all the communities and we work with the federal government in terms of the testing. We monitor that, right from the environmental monitoring that goes on with the federal government to the tap, so we've avoided some of the unfortunate occurrences that have happened on federal reserves.

Clearly, if water is a fundamental right for aboriginal people, as we've asserted, then we all have to do a better job.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

In his testimony this morning, Dr. Schindler said his findings were suggesting that the problem with contamination of the waterways may be because of airborne emissions. Is there any initiative by the federal or territorial governments, or by someone, to begin monitoring the lichens and the snowfall in the Northwest Territories?