Evidence of meeting #10 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Hydropower Association
I think they have a different role.
Now, I'm really getting out on a limb here--
12:30 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
12:30 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Hydropower Association
--but I think there's a role for both. I think government needs to be there to provide firm indications of what needs to be done as an absolute minimum and to set resource allocation decisions—I'm thinking about provincial governments there--but at the same time, companies need to demonstrate that they don't just do the absolute minimum. In our view we need to go further than the minimum, in many cases, and I think probably most industries do.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa
The time has expired.
Ms. St-Denis, you have the floor for five minutes.
November 15th, 2011 / 12:30 p.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Good day. Thanks to all of you for being here today.
First of all, I'd like to come back to the problem of lists. Mr. Barnes seems to be saying that, if lists are made, all time and delay issues will be resolved. So I'd like to ask Mr. Barnes first, then Ms. Kwasniak, what they think about this. It seems to me that, to determine a list, it takes time and consultations. In your case, it's as if the word "list" were synonymous with a miracle solution.
Mr. Barnes, how do you see the list being organized? Who's going to do it? How much time will it take? How much will it cost? Who will be in charge of this list?
12:30 p.m.
Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Construction Association
I would say that the House of Commons and Senate would pass some sort of legislation or we could have regulations. I think the act has the ability to establish regulations for a list. I would see the government establishing what those lists should be. There would probably have to be quite broad consultation across Canada on establishing the list.
The bottom line is that for the 6,000 assessments that are done in Canada every year there is a federal coordination dance that takes two to six months, or longer, to decide who is going to do the assessment. The list-based approach is not the panacea, but it is a way we can provide certainty from the outset and waste no resources on deciding who is going to be the assessor.
I believe and we believe there's a strong benefit to clarifying what level of assessment is required and which projects require assessment without any deliberation.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Ms. Kwasniak, what makes you think the lists wouldn't work?
12:30 p.m.
Prof. Arlene Kwasniak
It's because of the way our federation works that the list won't work. Even if you had a list, you would still need a trigger; I mean, we have lists under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. Once something is triggered, you can then look at the exclusion list to see if it's excluded. If something is not physical, you can look at the inclusion list to see if it might be on it anyway. But in every case you need a trigger before you have a list.
You could always beef up the list approach by adding to the exclusion list, and you could deal with what Mr. Barnes called the “federal coordination dance” by doing something other than trying to deal with that as a list. For example, as was suggested, you could look at self-assessment again, and maybe just have one agency do all assessments—one that's better funded than the CEAA currently is—or you could have a new federal coordination regulation.
I don't see the connection between the list and efficiency. I guess the list is going to reduce the number of assessments, but I don't think that is a good thing when the federal government is the only one who can regulate within certain areas in this country.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Lise St-Denis NDP Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
I'd now like to ask Mr. Usher a question.
You wondered who would pay for strategic reviews. Do you have a solution to propose?
12:35 p.m.
P.J. Usher Consulting Services, As an Individual
It seems to me that when you get to the level of a strategic review, which is really some sort of policy-wide or region-wide assessment of something well beyond a project level, you're then beyond proponents. It's a proponent who proposes a project.
Keep in mind that in our system of environmental assessment where there are project reviews, it's done on a cost-recovery basis. A proponent pays, if I'm correct, two-thirds or 70% of the cost of a review, which I think is fair game for the project review, but once you get to the level of a strategic review, a region-wide thing that is much less defined, why proponents would want to pay for something they're not responsible for and for which they will not derive benefit, I can't imagine.
So who does that leave? I guess it leaves government, unless maybe it was an industry-wide thing. There's a government responsibility in the same way that governments pay for royal commissions or public inquiries.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa
Your time has expired. Thank you so much.
Next, Ms. Ambler, you have five minutes.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to direct my questions to the Canadian Hydropower Association.
Mr. Wojczynski, could you please elaborate on why hydro power is considered a clean energy source?
12:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Hydropower Association
First of all, it is renewable.
Second, there are impacts, such as on fish, but we do have a lot of regulation and measures in Canada that ameliorate the impacts.
The best example is that if we affect habitat, then we have to replace that habitat under the Fisheries Act no net loss policy. We have to put in, let's say, at least four times replacement habitat to deal with the risks.
So I think the kinds of impacts that do happen are dealt with, and there are no greenhouse gas emissions and air emissions.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Irving, you told us in your presentation that hydro power is our single largest generation source. Is hydro power generation also an efficient source of energy?
12:35 p.m.
President, Canadian Hydropower Association
Yes. In terms of efficiency, our history in Canada is a storied one in hydro power. We operate at over 90% efficiency, meaning that when turning the water power into electricity, when it goes through the turbine, that conversion happens at an over-90% rate in general throughout our facilities in Canada.
There are always opportunities to up that percentage, but comparing hydro power with other sources of electricity generation, we'll see other ones coming in around the 60% or 40% range at their upper limits.
When you look at raw efficiency, as you mentioned, hydro power is a clear leader.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you.
How much energy does Canada generate each year from hydro power?
12:35 p.m.
President, Canadian Hydropower Association
We generate roughly a little over 360 terawatt hours a year from hydro power. That's what puts us in the second-place position in the world.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Can you estimate how much untapped hydro power exists in Canada?
12:35 p.m.
President, Canadian Hydropower Association
We have a current installed capacity of about 74,000 megawatts in Canada. We could more than double that potential. Studies that we've conducted and that are well known, have been broadcast, and have been in existence since 2006, indicate we could develop roughly another 163,000 megawatts.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
That would necessitate, obviously, the building of more projects.
In your experience, have environmental assessments delayed or cancelled hydro power projects in the past?
12:35 p.m.
Chair, Board of Directors, Canadian Hydropower Association
Certainly the environmental assessment process has caused some projects to be delayed. There was one in B.C. that was a bit of an unusual case. There was a provincial override on an earlier licence, which actually sort of goes to the example of needing good environmental assessment and regulatory process in the first place so you withstand and have a social license later.
