Evidence of meeting #14 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plants.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Owen Vanstone  Manager, Sales and Marketing, Vanstone Nurseries; Board Member, Canadian Nursery Landscape Association
Gail Wallin  Executive Director, Invasive Species Council of B.C.
Terry Quinney  Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
Rachel Gagnon  Coordinator, Ontario Invasive Plant Council

December 1st, 2011 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

We'll call the meeting to order.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming as we continue our study on invasive species.

We have three groups of witnesses today and we're going to begin with the Canadian Nursery Landscape Association. You have up to ten minutes. I believe our presenter is Owen Vanstone, is that correct?

11:05 a.m.

Owen Vanstone Manager, Sales and Marketing, Vanstone Nurseries; Board Member, Canadian Nursery Landscape Association

That's right, yes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

You can proceed and you have up to ten minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Manager, Sales and Marketing, Vanstone Nurseries; Board Member, Canadian Nursery Landscape Association

Owen Vanstone

Thank you very much.

I appreciate the opportunity to be here. My name is Owen Vanstone and I'm here today on the behalf of the ornamental horticulture sector, specifically representing the Canadian Nursery and Landscape Association, or the CNLA. I'm a member of the CNLA through Landscape Manitoba, as my family owns and operates a wholesale nursery in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, and has done so for 30 years. It's something I've grown up with; I've been around plants forever. I also serve on the CNLA board of directors as the chair of Growers Canada.

The CNLA is a not-for-profit federation of nine provincial green industry associations, representing over 3,700 member companies in the ornamental horticulture sector. This includes wholesale nursery growers; landscape construction, design, and maintenance contractors; retail garden centres; and other related industries. In concert with the provincial associations, CNLA develops programs, undertakes initiatives, and forms alliances in order to achieve sustainable prosperity for members and stakeholders engaged in the green industry.

The CNLA’s vision for our sector is “A prosperous, professional and ethical industry that is recognized, valued, and utilized by the public, as a result of the environmental, economic, and lifestyle benefits provided by our members' products and services”.

As professionals within our industry, we collectively see ourselves as stewards of the environment, and we encourage and promote sustainability and environmentalism at a grassroots level.

A recent study conducted by Deloitte in 2009 on the ornamental horticulture sector as a whole, which also includes the greenhouse floriculture industry, estimated the sector’s total economic impact to be $14.48 billion, comprised of $6.98 billion in output and $7.5 billion in value-added impacts. The ornamental sector overall generates $3.8 billion in employment income and another $1 billion in end user taxes. Ornamentals is the only sector within agriculture to pay GST, I might add.

Human resource skill development and capacity-building are priorities. Ornamental horticulture provides over 136,000 full-time jobs to Canadians. It's estimated that for every two jobs in the industry, another job is created in the economy at large. Invasive species that impact the overall success of the CNLA members have potential to impact our sector, with the consequences being a direct and very real effect on continued prosperity and job growth in the industry.

My presence before this standing committee today is as a result of a very last-minute invitation; as such, we have not had as much time as we would have liked to do all of our homework. Therefore I come here today maybe more to ask questions than to provide answers.

As an association, we wish to understand, for instance, the specific objectives of the study being proposed by the committee. How will the outcomes relate to the work on prevention and management that is undertaken by CFIA as a critically important part of their mandate? What's the role of this committee, and what are the connections to the management efforts that are being undertaken by the various provincial agencies, such as environment and natural resources ministries? What will be the connections to the provincial invasive plant or invasive species councils, which exist in every province, to coordinate the many complex issues associated with the control and management of invasive alien species?

The invasive alien species strategy for Canada, developed by Environment Canada and released in 2005, indicates a four-step approach to the management of invasive alien species, namely: prevention, early detection, rapid response, and finally, management of established and spreading invaders, including containment, eradication, and control.

The objective of this standing committee is to study the fourth point—the management of established and spreading invaders—for nine very specific weed and insect invasive species. Clearly, this is the most expensive option of the four. Many studies clearly indicate the millions, if not billions, of dollars that have been spent by various levels of government on both sides of the border in attempts to manage already-established invasive alien species. The success of these management programs varies significantly from species to species.

CNLA concurs with the Environment Canada strategy that prevention should always be goal number one. To that end, our association, in particular the wholesale nursery growing sector, continues to work very closely with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

Beginning in 2004, when sudden oak death—another invasive pest classified by both CFIA and the USDA as a quarantine pest—was first detected on the west coast of North America, quick, proactive measures were undertaken by the industry. A best management practices program was put into place for B.C. nursery growers. Although this was an industry initiative, there was close collaboration with CFIA throughout. Recognizing that increased economic activity with other parts of the world, especially Asia, could well lead to other similar situations, CNLA members took the initiative to develop a phytosanitary systems-based approach to manage the possible spread of further pests, now known as the clean plants program.

The difficulty with prevention is the inability to state conclusively the actual benefit. Did the millions of dollars spent on any particular initiative save our government thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, or even billions of dollars in eventual management and cleanup costs? We can only speculate.

The CNLA represents companies in the entire value chain of the ornamental horticulture industry. The chain begins at the producer level and reaches the ultimate consumers, including home owners, developers, municipalities, and other government agencies, through our retail garden centre and landscape maintenance contract members. As such, we have the ability to reach many thousands of Canadians, who all must be engaged in any proposed management program. For instance, many garden centre members across Canada are already engaged in “Grow Me Instead” initiatives.

Landscape contractors have the ability to be similarly engaged in educating consumers. Our provincial associations are keen to work with provincial agencies and provincial invasive plant councils or similar bodies.

In closing, we wish to thank this committee for the opportunity to participate in this process, and we wish to express our commitment, as an industry, to developing and maintaining a sustainable and profitable industry while doing our utmost to mitigate the ongoing threat of invasive species.

I welcome any specific questions and comments on the weeds and insects identified within that list, and I thank you again for the opportunity to be with you today.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Thank you, Mr. Vanstone.

Next we have Gail Wallin, with the Invasive Species Council of British Columbia. Gail, you have up to ten minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Gail Wallin Executive Director, Invasive Species Council of B.C.

Merci. Thank you for the time here today.

I serve as executive director for one of the oldest councils in Canada. Terrestrial invasive plants have a major impact on the environment and economy. That's been documented worldwide. So a proactive approach on the part of the Government of Canada is critical.

When we take a look at the impact of invasive plants or species to Canada, one of the things our council recognizes is that plants are not the problem; it's the people who spread plants or invasives. It's a real issue. When we take a look at how plants or species are spread, we often talk about the pathways or vectors by which they're spread. Many of the species were in the horticulture trade at one point. Gardeners planted those at one time. So rather than focusing on the species, we'll be talking about the pathways and how to close the borders so that no further plants come in.

In Canada over 60% of all invasives are intentionally spread. We intentionally plant them or put them in our aquariums, or whatever. So if we're taking a look at how to reduce that, we know we need to look at the pathways.

We looked at feedback on your listing of nine, and we thought about where the focus could or should be. We're responding to your recommendations and your terms of reference. We strongly encourage the federal government to be active as a key partner and lead agency in working on federal lands across the country, whether it's dealing with reserve lands, lands under the jurisdiction of the Department of National Defence, or transportation corridors. These plants will spread from those federal lands outwards. So it's critical to be tight on both the borders coming into the country and along the lands managed by the federal government.

You've proposed eight or nine species to focus on. Being from the west coast, our species of concern are totally different from those in the Maritimes. We know there's some politics across the country, such as we see with giant hogweed, which has been in the press a lot, east to west coast. And through the work of our council and what others have done, we know it's much more highly established in Canada than what we thought it was three years ago.

When we look across Canada, we know that the priorities in the Maritimes will be different from the priorities in B.C., and that priorities don't exist right now in Alberta, the territories, or Yukon. Prioritizing species on a national basis requires linking into the priorities in the different regions, because they vary from one area to the next. From our council's perspective, it's difficult to set priorities on species that are already in the country, when the geography varies so greatly from place to place.

Our suggestion is that the focus on the species, which builds on the invasive alien species strategy, should be on prevention, early detection, and rapid response. The priorities need to be set locally and regionally for species once they've arrived. But closing the borders and working on how to prevent the entry of alien species is critical. The focus on prevention will certainly make a difference. Once they're in the country, if we find them and respond really quickly, we'll save the environment and save our dollars.

One of the ways to do that is to identify the most critical species that aren't in Canada, and to learn how we can stop them from becoming established. For example, there are different ways of having citizen science. Different departments could identify plants or species when they first arrive and then respond quickly. All the different federal agencies could have a role in this.

One of the visuals you have here is something that has been called for on a national basis, called a spotters network. That's having people from B.C. to Newfoundland to the Yukon all engaging citizens who are out there on the land base to look for and report on invasive species when they first arrive. If we could all have many more citizens and many more groups all working together, we'd have a much better chance of identifying what's on the landscape.

I spoke to this a little already, but the percentage of federal lands varies a little province by province. But those are often seen as seed beds or source points for the spread of invasive species to the surrounding land. So it's critical, when species don't respect administrative boundaries, that the lands managed by the federal government, including reserve lands—and we know there's debate about whose lands those really are—be areas that are targeted for management because they already will have invasive species on them. Sometimes they have species at risk on them and the invasive species are having an impact on the species at risk, but the only land agencies that have responsibility for that land are with the federal government. So we encourage that.

It's been really interesting that there is a whole range of federal agencies involved in invasive species, and invasive species cross a number of economic, environmental, and social factors. Environment Canada had a coordinating role in the past, and the need to have a stronger, more coordinated role, led by Environment Canada is something that our council calls for. One of the first points in your terms of reference was the roles of Environment Canada and Parks Canada. From our council's perspective, we see that coordinating role within Canada as being critical as a first part.

Another part we think is critical is, if Environment Canada is the lead for coordination and there's an interdepartmental or whatever process in place to have federal agencies working together on invasive species, there's a whole range of other partners across the country. It can't be done by any single agency. It needs to involve, across the country, both the provinces and the territories because they're going to be the ones that have the most specific knowledge in those areas about the data for that.

There are also now, either established or in the process of being established, invasive species councils—I think there are two plant councils at this point—all across the country. The only place where that might not exist is in Nunavut, and that conversation is still under way. The invasive species councils across Canada are generally inclusive of all the governments. They're another player that can really assist with getting that citizen science and information out.

Wrapping up, we think that the listings of plants and insects are important to Canada. They're more important in one area than the next, but they aren't focusing on the key role of prevention and early response. Most of them are well established. The giant hogweed, from the plant side, has been probably the most politically sensitive one across the country in the last three years. There have been a couple of CBC radio national programs about it. I don't know how many people we've dealt with, parents who had kids in the hospital because of giant hogweed. It is a highly political one, although it might not be the right ecological one that's of the most significant impact to Canada.

It's a balance of trying to manage politics and environmental needs. From our council's perspective, determining how to manage things within the country needs to be done in collaboration with the land managers and provincial and territorial governments. But in order to have a coordinated approach, closing the borders federally or resolving and managing them on federal lands is key. We all know that even though we may all have administrative boundaries that separate B.C. from Alberta or whatever, invasive species have not been effective at respecting those administrative boundaries. As a result, from our council's perspective we're calling continually for the need for improved collaboration. We totally believe that working together is fundamental to making a difference. Our council is in the process, as of last week, of moving from a plant council to a species council for one particular factor. The particular factor is prevention.

Whether people coming up from the States with their boats are bringing zebra mussels or bringing spartina or milfoil into Canada, it matters not. What we're looking for is people coming into Canada with clean boats free of invasive species. When we go to target prevention and checks at the border, which we're working on both with federal and provincial agencies, the focus is going to be on changing the behaviour and working together, whether it's plants or species. As a result, over the next week our council will join the family across the country on a species council.

Thank you for your time.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Thank you so much.

Next we'll hear from the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. Then the Ontario Invasive Plant Council will be available for questions.

Mr. Terry Quinney, you have up to ten minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Dr. Terry Quinney Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I am Terry Quinney, provincial manager of fish and wildlife services for the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters. With me is Rachel Gagnon. Rachel is the program coordinator for the Ontario Invasive Plant Council, which is hosted by the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters.

Firstly, thank you for inviting us to speak on this important topic of Canada's efforts toward controlling harmful invasive terrestrial species. I am making this presentation on behalf of the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources, the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters' invading species awareness program partnership, established in 1992, and the Ontario Invasive Plant Council, which I already referred to as being hosted by the OFAH. We would invite you to please visit the websites, invadingspecies.ca and ontarioinvasiveplants.ca, for further valuable information.

Our environment and ecosystems supply multiple important benefits for the quality of life and economic well-being of Canadians. For example, about three million Canadians go fishing every year, and federal government statistics show that recreational fishing is worth over $7 billion annually in Canada. An additional one million residents go hunting, contributing over $3 billion to our economy every year. That's over $10 billion in economic benefits every year resulting from recreational fishing and hunting alone. These billions of dollars, by the way, are particularly important to rural and northern Canadian communities.

An important role for governments—local, provincial, territorial, and federal—is to ensure that the supply of benefits I have referred to is optimized, not compromised and decreased.

The introduction and spread of harmful invasive alien species to Canada affects our environment, economy, and society. This threat is increasing at an alarming rate as current invaders spread, requiring management and control with limited resources. New invaders continue to arrive as a result of insufficient prevention and detection measures. You've already heard from the previous presentation that the economic cost of just 16 non-indigenous species is estimated to be between $13 billion and $34 billion annually to the Canadian economy.

The Government of Canada has been working towards a collaborative response to invasive species by developing various strategies, frameworks, recommendations, and action plans, such as an invasive alien species strategy for Canada, authored by Environment Canada in 2004. That has already been referred to this morning.

In addition, there is an action plan for invasive alien terrestrial plants and plant pests, authored by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, in 2008; “Planning for a Sustainable Future: A Federal Sustainable Development Strategy for Canada”, authored by Environment Canada, in 2010; and in 2011, an invasive plant framework, authored by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

These are just a sample of the strategic documents, frameworks, and action plans that the federal government has been formulating over recent years.

Through the development of these key documents, it is apparent that the Government of Canada has described and understands the steps needed to ensure an effective approach to managing invasive species. These include prevention, early detection, rapid response, and management of established and spreading invaders, which are major themes that you've heard each of the presenters mention this morning.

The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters has long recognized the threat of invasive species. As a result, it has delivered the invading species awareness program in partnership with the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources for nearly 20 years. This program seeks to communicate the invasive species issue to the public directly to engage their support in preventing the introduction and spread of invasive species in Ontario.

The OFAH also supported the development of, and is currently hosting, the Ontario Invasive Plant Council, which was formed in 2007. The Ontario Invasive Plant Council is a coalition, in fact, of government, non-government, first nations, and academic institutions that are working together to respond to the growing threat of harmful invasive alien plants in the province of Ontario.

Both the invasive species awareness program and the Ontario Invasive Plant Council ensure that the goals and approaches of each program meet the objectives outlined in the Canadian national strategy and action plan I referred to earlier in the presentation.

Preventing the introduction and spread of invasive species is listed as one of the objectives of an invasive alien species strategy for Canada. The OFAH and OIPC are actively engaged in prevention initiatives through public education and awareness. Many of our programs target the pathways of introduction of these invasives.

The strategy I just referred to has identified approximately nine examples of threats, some of which are addressed by the two programs we host, which I've mentioned. We're currently working on expanding our education and awareness approach for terrestrial invasives. Instead of being species-specific, the approach would deal with pathways, such as horticulture. By targeting pathways, as you've heard, we can prevent the introduction and/or spread of multiple invaders that share a common pathway of invasion. This approach can be more cost-effective than prioritizing efforts based on specific individual species.

An invasive alien species strategy for Canada also lists early detection and a rapid response as objectives. Both ISAP and OIPC are actively engaged in early detection and monitoring initiatives. As a protocol for coordination and collaboration, we'd like to see all organizations share a common knowledge base through a nationally shared database to which information and sightings of invasive plants are contributed. This would enable all organizations and affiliated skilled individuals to contribute information and to identify the specific geographic locations of those invasive plants. The OFAH and OIPC have been developing and promoting an invasives tracking system, a web-based reporting tool. Both the public and professionals could use it to report invasive species and to obtain information.

The invasive species awareness program is currently receiving funding from Environment Canada's invasive alien species partnership program to establish an early-detection network. Working in partnership with organizations such as the Ontario Invasive Plant Council, this project seeks to create a network of public and industry volunteers who will conduct on-the-ground, community-level monitoring and surveillance of invasive species through key pathways.

Invasive species awareness program staff answer the invading species hotline, a province-wide, toll-free phone number for receiving reports of invading species in Ontario directly from the public. The Ontario Invasive Plant Council is also working in partnership with the National Invasive Species Council toward developing a national spotters network. Both the OFAH-hosted program of OIPC and the invasive species awareness program have a developing network of weed inspectors and other volunteers who help with these initiatives.

An active, effective network for monitoring, surveillance, and sharing of information to identify newly arrived priority species is also being developed.

The ultimate goal of these programs is the early detection of invaders in order to assist lead government agencies with the implementation of rapid response. Although early detection and rapid response are listed as key objectives in the national strategy, we suggest to you that there needs to be greater investment toward the development and implementation of rapid response plans.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Mr. Quinney, unfortunately your time has expired. You're actually a little bit over, but we look forward to your answers.

At this time we'll be switching over to questions for the witnesses.

We'll begin our questioning with Mr. Sopuck. You have seven minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you very much.

I appreciate the presentations very much.

My first set of questions I'll direct to Dr. Quinney.

I'll just make an editorial comment here. I'm just delighted to see the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters presenting to our committee. I don't think there's enough expertise from the hunting and angling community presented to us as a committee.

Dr. Quinney, not only do I appreciate your presentation now, but also I would recommend that you and your colleagues in the hunting and angling community be part of our deliberations more often.

You were very careful when you talked about invasive species to talk about harmful invasive species. Does that imply that you make a distinction between harmful invasive species and harmless or beneficial invasive species?

11:30 a.m.

Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Dr. Terry Quinney

No. Thank you for the question, though.

We would emphasize that we fully understand the context of limited resources available to governments, whether they be local, provincial, or federal, when faced with numerous competing but worthwhile funding programs. Clearly, governments are obliged to prioritize. Through our presentation and given the strong framework approach that the federal government, for example, has developed, we have, I hope, identified some areas that require additional investment by the federal government in order to maintain those multiple benefits from the environment to which I've referred.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

In terms of the actual invasive species themselves, I would think of alfalfa, for example. That's a non-native species brought here by human beings. Surely that wouldn't be considered a harmful invasive species.

11:35 a.m.

Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Dr. Terry Quinney

I wouldn't consider it invasive. It is non-indigenous, but it's not harming people or society.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Again, I think these distinctions are really important, because we often tend to make blanket statements. I'm not saying you did, but overall there's this approach that a non-native species is automatically a bad thing to have on the landscape.

I appreciate that you're basically saying that ecological integrity is what's really important.

11:35 a.m.

Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Dr. Terry Quinney

Yes, and again, I appreciate the question, because there are examples where, for whatever reason, an ecological niche may become open. It's quite appropriate to examine filling that ecological niche.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I think the introduction of Pacific salmon into the Great Lakes would fit that category.

11:35 a.m.

Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Dr. Terry Quinney

It's absolutely been a win-win all around, environmentally and for society.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Dr. Quinney, should we also be looking at invading native species that have expanded their ranges due to human landscape modifications? I'm getting away from plants for a minute, but let's take a look at some of the mammals--the skunks, foxes, racoons, opossums, and so on--that are really expanding their range and have done great harm to the reptile and amphibian populations in southern Ontario, for example. They're native species, but they have expanded beyond what was their traditional range. Should we be controlling them?

11:35 a.m.

Provincial Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters

Dr. Terry Quinney

Yes, and in fact Environment Canada needs to complete the action plan for invasive alien terrestrial animal species. The federal government has been providing a number of very good resource documents, leadership documents, but we're not done yet.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

When there is human management of landscapes, I think we have an obligation, as a species, to step in and “restore the ecological integrity”.

Ms. Wallin, I have just a couple of questions for you. Aren't invasive plant species more of a problem on disturbed landscapes, as opposed to native natural landscapes?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Invasive Species Council of B.C.

Gail Wallin

It's a general question. I would say there is a more rapid spread of invasive plants on disturbed landscapes. It's a big issue in British Columbia after the fire seasons. But it's not limited to disturbed landscapes. There are a number of species that can overtake healthy ecosystems if you have a really aggressive invasive plant.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Can you just give us a couple of examples of an invading species that has taken over an undisturbed natural ecosystem?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Invasive Species Council of B.C.

Gail Wallin

An undisturbed one.... The two examples I was thinking of were on a disturbed landscape, but from an agricultural side. From an agricultural side, a species like an ox-eye daisy, which is coast to coast, can overtake what is considered to be a healthy hayfield or a healthy grazing field and it can overtake that range land and it's no longer palatable to cattle. Another one is orange hawkweed, or the hawkweed family. Those are very aggressive and they don't need to have disturbed lands.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I live next to Riding Mountain National Park, so I have a unique kind of comparison between a natural landscape and an agricultural landscape. One observation is that on the agricultural landscape there are a lot more invading species and weeds than there are inside the national park. The contrast is quite stark.

One comment I'd make, Ms. Wallin, in terms of the agency that you recommend to be involved in this, is that I think Agriculture Canada might even have more of an impact than Environment Canada would, given the invasive plant issues on agricultural landscapes. And again, in prairie Canada there are huge blocks of land that are managed by Agriculture Canada, known as the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration community pastures.

Would you see a major role for Agriculture Canada in this?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Invasive Species Council of B.C.

Gail Wallin

There absolutely is a major role for Agriculture Canada and the provincial ministries of agriculture, but it absolutely isn't seen to be the overall coordinating role. Because traditionally weed acts in Canada have been some of our oldest regulations, province by province. Weeds have traditionally been seen to be an agriculture issue, but they're a huge issue to biodiversity and they're a huge issue for parks.

There are so many different agencies involved that it makes sense, when you're trying to look at it from an environmental management and biodiversity, healthy ecosystems standpoint, that Environment Canada is the group to play the lead. The other agencies have to be totally involved. But to have an agricultural business focus, it rules out the majority of British Columbia.

You asked for an example of another one going into ecosystems. We have Scotch broom, which is overtaking natural ecosystems and that does suppress a lot of forestry culture. So definitely agriculture is not seen to be the lead in the west.