Environment Committee on April 3rd, 2012

[Monte Hummel]

I was raised in the bush in northwestern Ontario. I spend a lot of my time reminding my environmental colleagues how that's going to go over in the north if they say it the way they are saying it.

I have a foot in both camps, and I am aware of this cultural divide you're talking about. Just how you overcome it, I am not sure. What it does require, rather than blaming each side and saying inflammatory things, is to try to calmly explain to people that this is the life experience these folks have. Try to explain to people in the north why the people in the city think the way they do, and explain to the people in the city why the folks in the north or the rural or coastal parts of our country think the way they do. It is a great diverse country that we've got, but that can also be divisive.

Things like the Rouge Park that is about to move ahead in the greater Toronto area does represent a terrific opportunity to get students out, at least for a day hike, and get a little sense of what we are talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

The time has expired.

Ms. Duncan, you have seven minutes.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask a question, if I may. I thought we had four witnesses coming today.

Can someone give me an update on that? I'm hoping they are coming back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

We did have four witnesses. We were notified this morning by one of the groups that they wouldn't be able to come, and then just before the committee meeting started we were notified by another that they were not available. It was last minute—

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Will we be inviting them back?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

We'll try to get them back at another time.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I would like to hear from them. Thank you.

Thank you both.

Mr. Young, when Mr. Woodworth was asking Mr. Hummel questions, I saw you writing something down. Are there some things you'd like to share with us?

[Bradley Young]

I was just taking notes on my colleague's answers here. It's just a cordial thing to do.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Okay. That's all I wanted to know.

You mentioned something, and I didn't quite get the words down. It was something like “the aboriginal economic forum does not reflect this”. Can you elaborate on that? What is the current state, and how could it be better?

[Bradley Young]

Well, 80% of first nations communities are in the forest, and we would hope, because of our organization being the National Aboriginal Forestry Association, that there would be a discrete envelope of support for that sector. Given all the connections between prosperity, anti-poverty, the tax base, and the health of the rural economy, we would have hoped there would have been more investment in the aboriginal forest sector under that framework. Unfortunately, we somehow got missed in the shuffle.

That was a point the executive director was sure to tell me; he's recovering from back surgery. He said to make sure that I have some strong language on that and to say that now is the time.

You can always fix things, right? You can approach the aboriginal forest sector from the discrete economic side or you can approach it from the conservation side, and that is what's really unique about the aboriginal forest sector. It's really broad. There are multiple avenues for engaging and getting things done in the forest.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

If you could make a recommendation to the committee, what would the recommendation be on this? Be as clear as you can, so we can get it in the report.

[Bradley Young]

Let's talk about an envelope for the aboriginal forest sector. Let's discuss that and let's move that forward. It is important for first nations aboriginal communities to be prosperous in the rural hinterland of Canada and be contributing to the lifeblood of the country, as opposed to being perceived as a drag.

Let's get on with joint prosperity. That's what I would say.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you.

Then you talked about article 8 on biological diversity, and you talked about needing involvement and consent of aboriginal peoples. Can you talk about the current state and what you would like to see going forward?

Again, the more specific you can be in making recommendations to this committee, the more helpful that is.

[Bradley Young]

I checked up as far as I could because our shop is a small technical shop here in Ottawa, but we were monitoring the fact that Canada was going to ratify and sign the convention on biological diversity. There are articles underneath the convention that are internationally binding and have a very direct implication for a national conservation plan, given that consent, given that involvement, given that equitable sharing of benefits is explicitly in the text of the treaty.

I think you need a really good technical platform and a due diligence design in terms of making sure that platform is built into the national conservation plan and doesn't get missed. You can't get around it because it is a binding international covenant. I don't think folks have to be alarmed by that. By and large, in terms of what Monte has shared there, that when you start dealing with indigenous folks and first nations people you'll often get beyond the positioning very quickly, if it's a respectful relationship and there is some parity in terms of resources.... You'll get down to mutual interest and mutual development, and you'll just get moving forward.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Sorry, Mr. Young. I don't want to interrupt.

What would be the very specific recommendation to the committee?

[Bradley Young]

Again—

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Be very specific.

[Bradley Young]

Please design a resource and a technical package that can look into paragraphs (a) and (j) of article 8 as they apply to the national conservation program.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

You talked about conservation refugees. Can you talk about what has happened in the past and what you want to ensure in the future?

Again, I'm asking for a very specific recommendation.

[Bradley Young]

Boy oh boy, that's a huge topic. It's not a really well-known portion of history that a lot of Canadians are in regular contact with. I happen to be lucky in the sense that I have done some advanced graduate work and have lived, worked, played, and prayed—done everything—in the mountains of Alberta.

The creation of the national parks in the latter part of the 19th century was a tremendously contentious event with the confederacies of the northern plains—I'm talking Treaty 6, Treaty 7, and Treaty 8 territory, as well as the present-day B.C. first nations. When you have a situation where a land base was once used for medicinal gathering, for hunting, for traditional uses, for spiritual uses, and the next day the walls are up and you're actively excluded, and you could be legally, and were legally, prosecuted for going into those areas, there is an emotional pain at the minimum.

What has happened over the years is that there have been various legal challenges to that, various activism. I think of Jasper, in particular, of the national parks because I had some professional engagements there. They are working busily at repairing that relationship.

It takes an awareness of that history first. It takes good discussions, and then eventually, as things move forward, it takes investment of resources and a willingness to do things differently there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you.

Your time has expired. We're now going to begin our first second round of questioning, and it's five minutes each. We'll begin with Ms. Leslie.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both the witnesses. This has been very interesting. It has been really interesting to listen to your testimony.

My first question goes to Mr. Hummel. When you talked about sharing the leadership, that struck me. You said that NGOs have great and innovative ideas. I'm just wondering if you could just share with us a bit more about how we tap into that, this sort of innovation that's happening on the ground.

How would we support that? Is it a matter of supporting programs with groups that maybe are trying out different things? Some will work and some won't. Is it sort of like the cream rises to the top? What's the best way to support that innovation?

[Monte Hummel]

You can do that. I guess I would suggest that the actual drafting and development of the plan itself be a joint effort, that you bring a diversity of people to the table here. It doesn't have to be a throng of thousands.

The people who cobble this together should be representative of the dozen interests that come to the table, and not just be orchestrated by government. I think you need a committee—I hate to say it—a group of people to put this together. It needs to be the product of a mind greater than just the government, in my view.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Both of you talked about consultation in different ways. I hear people dismiss consultation and say that they have to do it to make sure they've dotted their i's and crossed their t's. But there's a big difference between that kind of consultation and meaningful consultation, which actually draws out the best of what's happening on the ground.

[Monte Hummel]

I'm sure Bradley will speak to this. Consultation, involvement, seeking support—these are all passive ideas.

I've been very busy in the Mackenzie Valley. You'd never hear me say that the conservationists want to protect the ramparts. You'd hear that the conservationists support the chief of Fort Good Hope, who wants to protect the ramparts. The leadership for these initiatives needs to come from the people who are going to be experiencing the consequences of them. It's a matter of sharing the fashioning of it, the creation of it. It's not a matter of just cobbling something together and then working with...by then, it's often too late. You sort of say, “If we'd been involved in putting this together, we would have put it together differently.”

There are people outside government who are capable of bringing real, positive energy. They can fashion this thing with you and work with you to pull it together and write it and help you with all the folks who need to be involved to make it successful. That's really what I have in mind. It's not consultation. It's not involving.... It's not going to people after the fact. It's getting people in on the ground floor to actually put it together.