Evidence of meeting #8 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Bennett  Executive Director, Sierra Club of Canada
Jennifer Jackson  Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association
Sandra Schwartz  Vice-President, Policy Advocacy, Canadian Electricity Association
Terry Toner  Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.

12:50 p.m.

Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.

Terry Toner

There's no question that with the growth in the number of projects, at least in the region I live in, which is Atlantic Canada, it certainly has taxed all of the agencies, not just the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency, but the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, other departments, and the provincial governments.

There is a tremendous amount of work that needs to be done, and at some level there may not be resourcing. Also, in consulting with both stakeholders and first nations, there's a potential for consultation fatigue. We have encountered significant challenge, and we are working with first nations in particular to see if we can't find ways to assist them to have that resource capability to participate in these very processes that occur under CEAA and provincially.

It is an ongoing challenge. Being more focused to get the right level of review for the right level of project is one way we can perhaps gain a little bit of efficiency and restore it.

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Thanks very much.

12:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy Advocacy, Canadian Electricity Association

Sandra Schwartz

Just to add to that, the bottom line is that with $293 billion of investment required in the electricity sector over the next 20 years, with a streamlined process, with a more efficient process, that will help. But we have a large number of projects that are going to be required. So to answer your question, yes, additional resources in the right places....

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Thanks very much.

In the time I have left, I have a question for the Canadian Electricity Association and for Mr. Bennett.

There is the perception that with industry and environment groups it has to be adversarial, where we have to protect at all costs and we have to deregulate at all costs. But in fact I know there is a lot of common ground in both “camps”, if I can use that word.

Mr. Bennett, I'll start with you. Can you share with us, what is some common ground that you see with industry?

Then I would pose that question to the Canadian Electricity Association.

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Sierra Club of Canada

Dr. John Bennett

Well, we've heard a lot of it right here.

We think this should be an efficient process as well. We don't think we should be holding up good projects because we have so many bad ones and we can't handle it.

We agree that we need to have good, clean drinking water and good sewage treatment. We want to support those projects. We just want to make sure those projects go well.

If we're going to be spending multi billions of dollars on our electricity system, putting a few hundred million dollars into the environmental assessment side is a bargain. So we agree on a lot of areas and we talk to each other all the time.

Actually, the real divide is between government and environmental groups.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Touché.

12:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy Advocacy, Canadian Electricity Association

Sandra Schwartz

And just to respond, my background comes from the environmental community. That's where I started my career. In my experience—both in my career in the environmental movement but now in the industry sector—we actually have quite a bit of common ground. It's a matter of finding processes where we can come together and finding where that common ground is.

It benefits both sides. It benefits proponents of projects, but I think it also benefits the environmental community to understand each other's frame. And really, we have and will continue to have many instances where we work quite closely with the environmental community.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Thanks.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

Your time is up. Thank you so much, Ms. Leslie.

The last round of five minutes is Mr. Woodworth's.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back and touch on something that Ms. Rempel talked a little bit about—the recent amendments that partially consolidated the authority for environmental assessments by making the CEAA responsible for comprehensive studies. I'm interested, particularly from Ms. Schwartz and Ms. Jackson, whether your members have encountered this new approach and whether they have rated it favourably. Has it been helpful or not? Do either of you know?

12:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy Advocacy, Canadian Electricity Association

Sandra Schwartz

As Mr. Toner already pointed out, it's still very early in the process. We're not familiar with any particular projects that members have where that has been encountered, at this point.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Is that pretty much the same for you, Ms. Jackson, or not?

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association

Jennifer Jackson

We supported the insertion of timelines in the regulations.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

About the idea of the CEAA doing comprehensive assessments—

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association

Jennifer Jackson

I don't have any knowledge about ongoing comprehensive studies affecting our member projects.

12:55 p.m.

Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.

Terry Toner

We're supportive of that.

And we're also supportive of the role the major project management office has played in trying to bring together, along with the CEAA, some of the considerations.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

As I understand it—and I don't really understand it very well—there is a two-step process involved right now, where a minister makes an environmental assessment decision and then a responsible authority makes an environmental assessment decision. Would you see a benefit to incorporating those steps with a CEAA process, that is, an agency process?

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Water and Wastewater Association

Jennifer Jackson

My understanding is that terms of reference are prepared and then a decision is made as to where the project will be slotted from there. That's fairly comparable to a lot of provincial environmental assessment projects. So we don't see that that process needs to be changed.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

All right.

I was intrigued by one of the recommendations in your report, which was to focus the triggering of the CEAA on projects where it can bring added value. And I regret I got your report only today, and there is a page and a half or two pages of background there.

In the few minutes we have left here, I wonder if I could ask the Canadian Electricity Association to elaborate on the recommendation of focusing the triggering of CEAA on projects where it can bring added value.

12:55 p.m.

Representative, Canadian Electricity Association, and Director, Environmental Services, Nova Scotia Power Inc.

Terry Toner

Today the triggers are broad and down to very small project size, where there are many screenings. If you were to talk to most agencies that have to execute those screenings, they would echo the comments you made earlier, that indeed they've put a lot of resources into some of them for perhaps marginal value, that they have processes already in place for their own act that deal with this. The Fisheries Act in particular is well-equipped to do that.

We're suggesting if the triggers had a higher threshold, and they could either be size of project or potential size of impact, as is often the case in provincial legislation, that would bring the focus of a full environmental assessment review on projects that would benefit from it and projects that are of a smaller nature--activities like best management practices or permitting or other mechanisms. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has developed a risk management framework and a “pathway of effects” that they use very effectively now to try to deal with projects and match up the level of effort of review and activity with the potential for impacts. I think we're advocating the same type of philosophy.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mark Warawa

You have 45 seconds.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I also wanted to ask for a bit of elaboration on another item I saw in your report dealing with the issue of federal and provincial harmonization, and that is the idea of process substitution. Could you elaborate on that in 30 seconds?

1 p.m.

Vice-President, Policy Advocacy, Canadian Electricity Association

Sandra Schwartz

Process substitution refers to equivalency agreements, or equivalency with provincial legislation. The Canadian Hydropower Association will be here on the 15th of November and will be able to address that in greater detail. Most of their brief is focused on that.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I'll wait for that.

Thank you very much.