Evidence of meeting #46 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Gelfand  Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
Robert McLean  Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment
James McKenzie  Principal, Office of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development
Kevin Cash  Director General, Wildlife and Landscape Science, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you, Mr. Woodworth.

We will move to our last questioner, Mr. McKay, for five minutes, please.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I just want to pick up on Ms. Ambler's $250 million announcement about the national conservation plan, which I assume is accompanied by the usual panoply of photo ops and background.

I'm looking at the main estimates, and they say the major increases are an increase in funding of $46 million for the national conservation plan. It goes on and adds other stuff for weather services and world-class tankers, etc. Then they say the increases are offset by the decreases of $53 million, which includes the big hit to sustainable development. Another decrease is to species at risk. This looks like sideways money. Then when I look in more detail, they talk about a $22.5 million grant in support of the natural areas conservation program, which is a new column.

Mr. McLean, is this just sideways money—you're taking from Peter to pay Paul—or is this actually fresh money?

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

It is fresh money for new activities. The national conservation plan included the $50 million for the wetlands conservation fund that we mentioned already, and an additional $50 million for the habitat stewardship fund and the aboriginal fund for species at risk. What we've done for the first time is not only prioritized funding for at-risk species, but also the prevention stream, that earlier question around those species of special concern and preventing them from becoming endangered.

The third component is $100 million for the natural areas conservation plan that you just mentioned. The $22.5 million for the Nature Conservancy of Canada is part of that $100 million. The reason it's mentioned separately in the main—

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

It says the natural areas of conservation. Is that different from “nature conservancy”?

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

The Nature Conservancy is the recipient of the $22.5 million for the program called the natural areas conservation program.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

The $46 million is made up of $22 million for natural areas conservation, which is nature conservancy. What are the others?

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

The numbers that I relayed to you a moment ago relate to five-year totals. The $252 million is the five-year total.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

But where are we in the estimates here? Presumably, if you're setting aside $46 million, we'll say $46 million is your one out of five-year total. I'm fine with that.

How do we make up the other $24 million in this set of estimates?

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

It's in the other programs that I just mentioned. The natural areas program is highlighted because it's a grant. Most of the rest of the funding is flowed through contributions, and that's where the bulk of it would be—the habitat stewardship program, aboriginal funds—

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

This would be.... Support of biodiversity appears to be up by about $15 million.

10:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

I'd want to look at the line item to make sure that I'm answering your question correctly.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

If you could just go through these to find out where the $46 million has gone, we're fine with that, but just out of curiosity.... This is sideways money; this is not fresh money. There's not a new cheque; this is money taken from other sources—sustainable development, species at risk, meteorological services, the project management office, the Great Lakes nutrient initiative, and other rounding errors. The overall budget has not actually increased.

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

The result area related to biodiversity of wildlife and habitat is an increase in the department's budget. The $46 million that is part of the five-year funding of $252 million in fact is new money for enhanced outcomes in that result area.

The only question that remains outstanding relates to what you mentioned earlier about species at risk. There is a decision yet to be taken with respect to renewal of a portion of the funding that we get for species at risk.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

It's a little strange. I can't quite figure out how my household budget would increase by x dollars if in fact I'm taking away from some other side of the household budget. Your overall budget is not increasing, according to your own main estimates.

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

That's from the departmental perspective. Within the department, there are increases for certain—

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Well, in main estimates you're at $961 million, and expenditures in 2014 were $978 million.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Okay, Mr. McKay, your time is up. We will have an opportunity to look at the main estimates in more detail and have our witnesses prepared for discussion of the main estimates in more detail.

I overlooked Mr. Sopuck. I thought his name was on the list and it was. In sequence, it should have been before Mr. McKay, so I'll go back to Mr. Sopuck for five minutes, and then we will have about 25 minutes left.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thank you.

Mr. McLean, does habitat change over time?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

It's not static in the least; okay. The impression that people leave is that habitat is completely unchanged, and I'm glad you acknowledge that change occurs.

Is all human-caused habitat change destructive of wildlife?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

No. For example, if one were thinking about wetland restoration, the national wetland conservation fund, it would be restoring the habitat capacity of those wetlands.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I was a bit surprised at Ms. Leslie's comments about forestry, because the notion that when an area is cut over the wildlife is gone is not completely true. What forestry does is change an old forest to a young forest, and many species prefer a young forest. Is that correct?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

Yes. Moose and deer, for example, would prefer early successional habitat, as distinct from caribou.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Following the clear-cutting that Ms. Leslie refers to, once the forest starts coming back, that area would probably see an increase in the number of moose and deer, the species that hunters and trappers, of course, find very desirable. Is that correct?

10:15 a.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Wildlife Service, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Robert McLean

Yes, that's correct, and it speaks to the importance of scale that I drew attention to earlier. If there are, say, forestry operations here, is habitat being restored some place else in, say, that boreal caribou range?