Evidence of meeting #51 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was animals.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Cahill  Senior Vice President, North American Fur Auctions
Gregory Thompson  Advisor, Fur Institute of Canada
Jim Gibb  Chair, Communications Committee, Fur Institute of Canada
Dion Dakins  Chair, Sealing Committee, Fur Institute of Canada
Nancy Daigneault  Vice President, Americas, International Fur Federation
Michael Howie  Director of Digital Content and Special Projects, The Association for the Protection of Fur-Bearing Animals

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

Okay, I'll continue.

But Mr. Howie didn't get a chance to talk, so I'll ask him to finish his statement about where he got the statistics. Mr. Calkins brought up that your statistics are wrong. Perhaps you want to answer that.

10:20 a.m.

Director of Digital Content and Special Projects, The Association for the Protection of Fur-Bearing Animals

Michael Howie

Yes, I would very much appreciate an opportunity to answer that specific member of Parliament. Those numbers come from the 2012 Canadian Nature Survey, which was signed off on by all provincial and territorial governments and the national government, including your party, sir. I'd also like to point out that being called a liar and not being given a chance to respond is also slightly rude, but I do not expect an apology. I'd also like to point out that we've been hearing one statistic and I would like verification from somebody that half of all trappers in Canada are aboriginal, because in public documents it is stated that 20,000 of the 70,000 trappers are aboriginal.

I'd also like to remind the members that there is already a $40 billion outdoor recreational economic plan in place. People are spending billions of dollars every year and only 5% of that is for hunting, trapping, and angling, and of that 5%, 2% are trappers. Again, this is a government document. I am not making up numbers. I would not do that; I'm a journalist by training. I stick to facts.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you very much.

10:25 a.m.

Director of Digital Content and Special Projects, The Association for the Protection of Fur-Bearing Animals

Michael Howie

I'm also being told that I don't—

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

Thank you very much.

I want some comments on this relationship between trapping and other outdoor activities. Perhaps, Ms. Daigneault, you could speak to the international perspective on this and give us an overview on how we see this moving ahead.

10:25 a.m.

Vice President, Americas, International Fur Federation

Nancy Daigneault

In terms of trapping internationally, as we've mentioned several times already this morning, Canada is a leader. We have a state-of-the-art facility in Vegreville, Alberta, that does trap research and testing. Canada is looked upon by other countries around the world as being the leader and where the knowledge base is in trap research. We trap sustainably in Canada and we contribute a great deal to the Canadian economy as a result. Internationally, and in many other jurisdictions, they don't share that point of view. Trapping does go on, but there are no open and closed seasons, so the animals are not trapped when the pelts are prime, and the animals are simply discarded. I think the international community looks to Canada and is very thankful for the support that the Canadian government has given for the research facility in Vegreville, for the support to the ranching community, for the AgriMarketing program, and for all the other supports that the Canadian government has given. Canada really is a leader and the Fur Institute of Canada's trap research program is considered the pinnacle and is revered internationally for its work.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT

That's one aspect, the technical aspect of trapping. How do we deal with public relations issues that are not going to get any better. More people are demanding wilderness participation; wilderness is getting smaller. How do we move ahead from here to ensure that we continue to have a sustainable trapping industry and that we can promote all the activities that are very valuable in the wilderness. This is not going to get any better for you if we don't have a proactive campaign of some kind that will show people what you're talking about. Where's the effort there, internationally?

10:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Megan Leslie

You have about 20 seconds.

10:25 a.m.

Vice President, Americas, International Fur Federation

Nancy Daigneault

Internationally, there are many proactive communications programs in place to help spread the word. I would invite you to look at truthaboutfur.com, a fantastic website that gives a lot of information about the trapping community in Canada and internationally, including the United States. Fur.com is another fantastic website. So there are proactive communications programs in place, but I think we as an industry recognize that more work can always be done and that we can always do better in communicating our issues to the public. That is something that we are looking at in the future.

10:25 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Megan Leslie

Thanks, Ms. Daigneault.

Mr. Carrie.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Dakins, I'd like to talk about the reliance on sealing by the Inuit.

Over the last few years I've been disturbed about some of the Canadian groups and how they politically support the European position on this. I find the European position so irresponsible. Here's a group that has mismanaged their own wildlife resources. As we heard today, they trap for nuisance control, yet they waste them. They seem not to have a problem. They've got a huge hunger for veal and pâté de foie gras when they're talking about animal welfare, but the ignorance and hypocrisy here is very dangerous. The Inuit don't have a Loblaws where they can buy beef and chicken and pork. We talk about tolerance and respect.

I was wondering if you could explain the impact of this anti-sealing, anti-fur trade campaign on the Inuit people living in remote communities.

10:25 a.m.

Chair, Sealing Committee, Fur Institute of Canada

Dion Dakins

On our sealing committee we have representation from the Inuit communities, who've made it quite clear that an attack on sealing is an attack on their culture and the cultures of the commercial and so-called subsistence or non-commercial hunting activities. It's critical that we as a nation start to better understand the value of the meat and the oil of these animals in the communities to maintain the health and the natural diet. Certainly, from Îles-de-la-Madeleine to Newfoundland and Labrador to Iqaluit, the hunters share a common view that the attacks against the activity of hunting seals are unjustified and that the European Union is hypocritical, because they do hunt seals within Europe because, apparently, their seals eat fish and they have a problem with the maintenance of the population. So it's critical that as a nation we formulate a plan to educate the world on the functioning of our ecosystems and the roles played by these hunters, who are very professional people with a huge cultural attachment to the use of the resource.

It's going to be critical to do that to protect the cultural integrity of Canada.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Mr. Gibb, would you like to comment on this as well?

10:30 a.m.

Chair, Communications Committee, Fur Institute of Canada

Jim Gibb

From a harvester's point of view, the seal hunt in Iqaluit and in Nunavut is a food harvest. The skins are a byproduct. For a number of years they would harvest the seal, skin it, and throw the skin away because there was no commercial value to it. That, to me, is a total disgrace and a total lack of respect for the animal. If you're going to harvest an animal, I think it's our responsibility.... Yes, it's a food harvest. That's their beef, to put it simply. They are not going to raise cattle north of the tree line. It's simply not going to happen. But they have seals that have been part of their culture for thousands of years. To take somebody who has a purpose in life...harvesting seals enables them to provide for their families. Their food is the seal, the skins bring money for other things, so to have them basically throw the seals away, does that make sense to anybody in this room?

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

No, not at all. That's why I wanted to get these points on the record.

Could you comment on how the fur trade contributes toward the Inuit and their way of life, and little bit more about how it contributes as part of their culture?

10:30 a.m.

Chair, Communications Committee, Fur Institute of Canada

Jim Gibb

Let me use a slightly different but still relevant example, that of polar bears. You see these gooey commercials right now with Coke featuring polar bears. I mean, their aim is to sell Coke—that's what they're after. But it gives the Inuit a bad image. Polar bear conservation didn't start when they thought the ice was melting a little bit faster than normal. It started back in the 1960s. The world population of polar bears was approximately 5,000 animals. Today it's over 25,000 animals. Canada has the most regulated polar bear hunt in the world. It's broken down into 13 sub-populations. There's exportable bears that can be exported around the world. With some bears the populations are low within their units so they don't allow exporting. I mean, for those people, that's what they do. That's their life. That's their lifestyle, and they choose to be there. They don't really want to live in Ottawa. Personally, I don't want to live in Ottawa either.

I want to give you another quick example of the model of trapping that we use in North America and how successful it is. Does anybody know how many different species of otter there are in the world? There are 13 different species of otter in the world. There is only one that is legally traded in the world, the North American river otter. That's a fact that I'm very proud of.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Madam Chair, am I over time?

10:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Megan Leslie

You have 15 seconds—

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

All right, thank you.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Megan Leslie

—which I'm sure you will love to give to Mr. Sopuck.

Mr. Sopuck.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Thanks.

I want to look at the future.

Contrary to some of the pessimism that seems to be out there, I think the fur trade is coming back. There's a real interest in sustainable food. There's an interest in sustainable clothing. The local food movement is very strong. The demand for hunter safety training is rising again. The demand for hunting licenses is increasing. I recall being in Toronto a few months ago at a meeting. I was staying in a downtown hotel and there was a fancy magazine on the coffee table there. It was not my kind of magazine but I looked at it and, sure enough, there were ads for fur in there and a piece about how fur is coming back.

As legislators we're kind of barometers of public opinion. When the public is concerned, the issues often come to our door very quickly, but by and large we see and hear nothing from the animal rights movement. So I think that Canadians as a whole are beginning to really reconnect with our roots as a country. It doesn't matter whether you're rural or urban, Canada is Canada to everybody. So in terms of the fur trade itself, perhaps Mr. Cahill or Ms. Daigneault would speculate on the future. Could you go 10 to 20 years henceforth and speculate where we're going to be, given the fast growing economies of Southeast Asia, Korea, China and so on? Are there expanding markets that will be there for us in order to support our sustainable-use industry?

10:35 a.m.

Senior Vice President, North American Fur Auctions

Robert Cahill

Thanks, Bob. I'll respond quickly and I'll leave some time for Ms. Daigneault.

We see a lot of trends shifting. I mentioned the Canada goose and the phenomenon of young people and people who weren't traditional fur users still spending more than a thousand dollars for a jacket. So it's not a cheap product, but it's wearing fur.

We're seeing the fashions change in the western world to styles that are more interesting to people today. You will often not notice fur when it's fur, because it's often dyed in colours to look like a piece of fabric; it's not just a natural piece of fur.

But we're seeing a big trend back towards natural fur, not only here in North America but in Europe as well. And in Asian markets there are significant opportunities, and driving trends there.

We see what's happening here as a positive trend for the future.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

Ms. Daigneault?

10:35 a.m.

Vice President, Americas, International Fur Federation

Nancy Daigneault

Concerning the sustainability of the fur trade, more than 75% of the pelts that go through many of the auctions in North America go to China, South Korea.... Russia used to be a very strong market, but because of the conflict with Ukraine it hasn't been in the last two years. But every year the export of the product to China and Asian markets has increased.

There is a market in Canada. People don't necessarily see it. It's not your grandmother's fur coat any more. I have a beautiful fur coat here that I wear all the time and I get nothing but compliments on it. It is wild fur; this is not ranched mink. Every time I wear this, I get people stopping me to ask where I got this garment. Sometimes you'll see fur on purses, and it will be dyed in a certain way to make it not look like a traditional fur. You'll see pieces of fur on purses, on wallets, and it will be used as trim, even on regular garments that women wear. It is a very versatile textile.

It's used in the whole fashion spectrum. It's not what people think about any more, the full-length long brown coat that our grandmothers wore. You'd be surprised how often you see it in major retailers across Canada. Even on hats there will be sometimes rabbit fur, or there will be muskrat fur on some of the hats at major retailers across Canada.

Many people aren't even realizing how versatile a textile this can be and that it is indeed a viable market in Canada and is expanding. We just don't see it in the same way we used to, because we're picturing a full-length brown coat, and now we have little patches of fur here and there on purses or on leather jackets and that sort of thing.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Megan Leslie

You have 15 seconds.