Evidence of meeting #53 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hunters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Harold Grinde  President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

Thank you for mentioning that in your presentation and the fact that it's been so successful. Maybe one of the things we could teach the students is how and why, and talk to them about examples like Kenya. The average person from a city would think the solution is to ban hunting if you want to save a species, but it turns out that it could very well be the opposite.

How many women are involved in your business and in outfitting in the Northwest Territories. Of the roughly 330 visitors you have in a year, how many of them are women, and is that growing or decreasing?

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

Probably it is on the rise. More and more women are becoming involved in hunting. If we take 400 a year in the mountains between eight of us, I would think maybe 50 women, maybe a little less, 25 to 50. We take three or four every year, but not necessarily as hunters. Quite often they come with their husband as a non-hunter, as a companion. Maybe he hunts a sheep and they hunt a caribou or something. But we have some every year. I think it's on the increase. We have several young ladies in the guiding industry. They work as professional guides as well as cooks and rangers.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

There is a tourism opportunity there—

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

Absolutely, yes.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

—a couples' resort.

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

Yes, for sure.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

We have heard it is on the increase in other parts of Canada. I think that's also a good sign and one of the reasons why we need to get women involved younger and younger.

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

For sure. Over the course of time I think we will see more and more women involved at all levels as hunters and guides and outfitters. We have one young lady who guides for us who is very passionate about becoming an outfitter. That's her goal in life.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON

That's good to hear. Thank you so much.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you, Mrs. Ambler.

We'll move to our last questioner, Mr. Sopuck, for five minutes.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

You used the acronym SWAAG; what does that mean? You're on a committee.

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

SWAAG is the stakeholders wildlife act advisory group. The Government of the Northwest Territories has been trying for 20 years to get a new Wildlife Act. It's been rejected every time they put one forward. In his wisdom, the Minister of the Environment in the Northwest Territories established this group to advise and try to make changes to the draft act to make it palatable to everybody in the territories. As a group, we didn't get all our wishes but we definitely made lots of improvements to the act and worked hand in hand with government. I think the work of SWAAG was pivotal to the NWT government getting a new Wildlife Act.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

I'm sure you're familiar with the situation of the woodland caribou, especially in Alberta and B.C., and one of the things that governments are doing is grabbing the bull by the horns with active predator control, wolf control, to stabilize the population of woodland caribou there. You may be interested to know that as chair of the Conservative hunting and angling caucus, I keep myself very alert in terms of public feedback from various activities that governments do. I can assure you we've received no negative feedback on that particular program, so I think that times have definitely changed in our favour.

Just on the subject of predator control, is that the kind of program you would like to see governments institute to improve the populations of Dall sheep, caribou, and moose?

9:40 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

When needed. There's a danger of having large carnivores become iconic species and where public pressure would have us manage for large predators and not for all wildlife. Wildlife management conservation has to be balanced. We have to consider all the different factors.

As much as we would like to think that we will some day have this natural ecosystem where we're not interfering, it's never going to happen in the world again. There's too much commercialization. There's too much development. There's too much interference. I think we need to be prepared, as the governments have done with the woodland caribou populations, to do what needs to be done to keep all species. We cannot manage wildlife for one iconic species, for wolves, grizzly bears, or cougars. We have to look at a balanced approach. We have to manage for all wildlife.

A good friend from South Africa, named Ron Thomson, worked in the park system in Zimbabwe for for years. He said wildlife management has to start at the soil. If we don't protect the soil, we won't have the plants, and if we don't have the plants, we can't have the animals. We can't start at the top and manage wildlife for wolves and bears. We have to start by protecting the land and protecting everything down the chain.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB

That's one of the things I find so striking about the experience of somebody like yourself who lives on the land, and the armchair environmentalists, who don't live on the land. The differences couldn't be more stark. Your point of view is based on reality, experience, and knowledge about what actually goes on out there. I think people like yourself need to be listened to a lot more. This is one of the reasons we were so proud to initiate this particular study.

How can our federal government help you going forward?

9:45 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

I think it's exactly what you're doing, listening to the people who have that hands-on experience and that knowledge, that wisdom, from years of living on the land.

I know there's a bill in Parliament—what stage it's at right now, I'm not sure—to make sure that nobody can interfere with somebody who's lawfully hunting or fishing in Canada. I'd like to see if we could find a way to go a little bit further and somehow entrench the rights of every Canadian to hunt and fish if they so chose. That would be a huge step in the right direction.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you to all our committee members for your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Grinde, for being here.

I want to point out to our committee that, generally speaking, when witnesses are coming from a distance, we try to have them by video. Mr. Grinde was here on his own dime doing some other personal business, so it was great to have him here in person.

Mr. Grinde, I want to thank you for your testimony today. All the best.

9:45 a.m.

President, Association of Mackenzie Mountains Outfitters

Harold Grinde

You're very welcome. Thank you for the opportunity. I really do think it's important to hear from the common folk, and that's all I am. Thank you very much.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

We're going to declare a three- or five-minute recess and we'll reconvene in camera for committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]