Evidence of meeting #60 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was holcim.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Greg Zilberbrant  Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.
Mary Jane Patterson  Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Your time is up.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

—which is what Alberta does. Just out of curiosity, what would your preference be and what would be most advantageous to your industry?

9:35 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

That is a very loaded question. Thank you for that very loaded question.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Fortunately, his time is up.

9:35 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

No, go ahead.

9:35 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

I think it will be a good discussion for our company and the Cement Association. Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

I bet it will.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

We move now to the five-minutes rounds, beginning with Ms. Leslie, please.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Actually, Madam LeBlanc....

Sorry, but we're trying to be fair. Madam LeBlanc isn't here all the time and it's nice to have her here, but I do have a couple of questions, so thanks.

I want to start with Ms. Patterson. You said some really intriguing things in your testimony. Where do I start?

I want to explore this idea of a retrofit coach that you talked about. Also, I can't remember which organization it was, but you talked about another organization starting to focus on the commercial side because they felt they could get there and make some progress on the commercial side versus the residential side.

All of that is to say that I have a long background in energy efficiency. I was part of the community group of stakeholders for the EGLIH, the EnerGuide for low-income households, program that never actually saw the light of day. I'm very familiar with EnerGuide and ecoENERGY—I don't care what people call it—retrofits that are supported by the federal government.

When you talked about the need for a retrofit coach and about moving to the commercial instead of residential side, it really made me think about why people aren't just doing this. Why do they need an organization to help them? Why do they need incentives? Why do they need a retrofit coach? Even for the commercial side, you always hear this line that if businesses can save money, they're going to do it. But they're not. They're not engaging in energy efficiency without the help of incredible organizations on the ground. Why do we need these energy efficiency organizations?

9:35 a.m.

Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

Mary Jane Patterson

Okay, there are a couple of parts there. I'll start with the residential, but I have some observations on the small business side also.

On the residential side, I guess one of the first things you learn when you enter this kind of work on energy efficiency and, broadly, environmental action is that human beings don't make decisions logically all the time or even often. There are many things that make us act otherwise.

Our work is rooted in something called community-based social marketing. The idea is that together we're creating a new social norm and that sometimes social norms are the things holding us back. When we don't see anybody else doing something, it feels weird, and we feel out of place. So, even though it's logical to do something, there could be a number of barriers that prevent us from doing it.

When we look at home energy retrofits, we've identified maybe three top barriers. One is the cost, especially the upfront capital cost, even though you know you're going to be paying it back over time.

A second one is knowledge, knowing what to do. That's where the home energy evaluation is really key. Many people think that if they replace their windows, they're going to solve the problem. One of the things we can let them know is that a window has a very low R-value. You can increase the R-value by making it double-paned or triple-paned or by adding features, but for the money you're going to invest in replacing the windows on your home, you're going to get a very low energy-efficiency return compared with what you would get if you spent the same amount money on insulating your home. At REEP House, the value of the insulation was $16,000. We probably spent that much on replacing the windows. The insulation probably took us 75% of the way to our 86% reduction in energy. The windows are a very small part of that. For the same cost, there was a really different impact. That's where knowledge can help people. People feel ill-equipped to make those decisions.

A third factor is trust. That's where a third-party organization, a trusted non-profit like REEP, can help people make decisions and choose among different options. People are a little leery of contractors. They might have one product they're pushing forward. People don't know how to compare quotes. The home energy evaluation is designed to help with a lot of that. We saw an opportunity to go further in creating this concept of a retrofit coach. We're basing it on something we heard about in the Washington, D.C., area. Really, what's missing is the federal incentive on our side, because in Washington, D.C., the coach was a very successful thing that they were able to have while it was funded. They really saw the coach almost as an app, which sat on top of a number of different state, federal, and local incentives along with utility incentives. The coach was helping people to navigate, to apply for, to qualify for, and to understand all of those things as well as to understand the retrofit work they needed to do and the different options.

I hope that goes part of the way to answering why we don't do what might seem logical.

On the commercial side, I think especially for small and medium-sized businesses it's day-to-day survival. Running an environmental organization, I can relate. I feel that we're like a small business. It's hard to stick your neck up long enough to see if there's some other option. Often cool new things like porous concrete cost more or you don't know about them. We need help to make those new things cost-neutral and attractive to people.

The three dozen businesses I talked about, which are taking part in our RAIN program, are learning about things like permeable paving, porous concrete, rain gardens, etc. We're offering them a free on-site visit during which we will walk around the property with them to show them the opportunities they have to prevent flooding and to institute those kinds of things.

We're making it cost-neutral just to get the information.

I'll leave it there for now.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS

Thanks very much.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

You're time is up.

I'm sorry, Ms. LeBlanc, this time it wasn't me who cut you off.

I think we'll go to our final question before we reconvene to complete our study report.

Mr. Woodworth, I think you'll be sharing your time with Mr. Toet. Go ahead, please.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

If I have some time, I will.

I want to begin with an apology to Mr. Zilberbrant for the loaded question and an apology to Ms. Patterson for having the words put into her mouth that the government just doesn't seem to want to put money on the table.

I know, Ms. Patterson, that you would not say such an uninformed and unintelligent thing, particularly when you are here talking about the application you've made to NRCan for $120,000 funding and when you mentioned the money that the government provided to assist you with the demonstration house and when you mentioned the benefits that occurred as a result of the ecoENERGY efficiency program.

You and I both would like that program restored, but you and I both know that it would be inaccurate to say the government doesn't seem to want to put money on the table, and I regret that politicians often lose sight of the fact that folks like you are here to actually tell us about what you're doing. So my apologies to you for that.

Ms. Patterson, I want to ask you specifically about the very interesting fact that you've mentioned which was, I think, that 21,000 tonnes of greenhouse gases annually are avoided in Waterloo region as a result of your work. I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how much if any of those efforts are replicated across Canada. Although I'm very proud of our efforts in Kitchener specifically, I wonder if you have connections who would tell us whether there are similar organizations accomplishing similar good work in other communities across Canada, because if I take the 21,000 tonnes and multiply it by the number of communities in which it could be implemented, it comes to a considerable difference. Can you help me with that?

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

Mary Jane Patterson

I don't know the numbers. I think Natural Resources Canada would know.

We're a member of Green Communities Canada, which is an umbrella organization for environment organizations like REEP across Canada. Many of our members across Canada were delivering the ecoENERGY program and the incentives, and a lot of private sector organizations were also doing so.

I think the number would be significant, but I don't happen to know it.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

There's no national association of groups other than Green Communities Canada as you said? Is that the only national association?

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

Mary Jane Patterson

Green Communities Canada represents environmental organizations like ours that do community-based work.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Do you have any notion of how many there are who are members of that group?

9:45 a.m.

Executive Director, REEP Green Solutions

Mary Jane Patterson

There are about 25 to 30 members right now.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Okay. Very good.

Thank you.

I'll give my remaining time if any to Mr. Toet.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zilberbrant, I was intrigued by the comment you made about evening the playing field domestically as well as in the foreign sector. I would assume that your company is somewhat involved in the foreign sector and that it would also apply to you with regard to some of your materials.

I'm just very curious about the importance of that, for instance, when you're talking about carbon emissions and the need for those to be equal.

Why is it so important for Canada as we go forward to make sure we have an even playing field not only domestically but also with all of the foreign entities and especially the ones we have to trade with?

9:45 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

I'm referring to the fact that when we look at something like cement, we are a commodity-based business and a commodity-based business on a very large scale in terms of volume and tonnage. The importance of the foreign aspect of the even playing field is the fact that our material can travel quite a distance, and manufacturing facilities in other parts of the world can send their material quite a distance.

The even playing field is really a reflection of our ability to remain competitive in the domestic market considering other jurisdictions that may not have the same impact on whatever the carbon mechanism is and that are able to import into Canada.

9:45 a.m.

Conservative

Lawrence Toet Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Great.

You also talked about the need for recognition of what companies such as yours are doing, and I appreciate 100% that there should be a need for recognition, but I think you also have an advantage in the marketing aspect. Many consumers are looking for products such as those your company is providing on the leading edge. There's a benefit also in that regard, is there not?

9:45 a.m.

Manager, Environment and Corporate Social Responsibility, Holcim Canada Inc.

Greg Zilberbrant

There is. Absolutely, there is a marketing aspect to the fact that we're able to deliver these products and able to deliver them in a quality and safe manner, as described before.

The aspect of really having that demonstration and adoption, I guess, would be more of a rising tide lifting all boats, simply by the adoption of more sustainable technology across the board. Our intention is always to be the leader in providing that material, and having that adopted more in common practice.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Harold Albrecht

Thank you, Mr. Toet.

My thanks to both of you as witnesses this morning. You gave us some good input for our study. Thank you for appearing by video. At this point we'll declare a five-minute recess while we reconvene in camera. Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]