Environment Committee on March 28th, 2018

[The Chair (Mrs. Deborah Schulte (King—Vaughan, Lib.)), Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm going to bring the meeting to order. I'd like to get the meeting under way. The minister has to be out of the room at 4:30, and we have our industry panels coming in.

I want to welcome the minister.

Thank you very much, Minister Garneau, for joining us today with your team. We're very much looking forward to your statements, and it is great to have you kicking off your portion of Bill C-69. It's great to hear what you have to say.

We'll have a quick round of questioning. We're probably going to get only one round. You're all going to get your six minutes, but you may want to share that time with other members so that everybody can have a chance to ask a question. I know there is an eagerness for that.

I'm going to open the floor right now to the minister.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair and honourable members, I am pleased to meet with the committee today to talk about Bill C-69, an act to enact the Impact Assessment Act.

Canada is fortunate to be surrounded on three coasts by the Pacific, Arctic, and Atlantic Oceans, and is also home to countless lakes and rivers. I have had the pleasure of travelling coast to coast to coast to see these waters first-hand, and the special pleasure of being able to see the vast network of lakes, rivers, canals, and oceans that form our great nation from space. I can tell you that even from space, you can clearly see that lakes, rivers, and other water bodies are a key element of our transportation network.

I have also had the pleasure of hearing from Canadians about their passion for boating, be it in their canoes, kayaks, sailboats, motorboats, or larger vessels.

There can be no doubt that Canada relies on all of its navigable waters for recreational use and for the movement of goods and services. Indigenous peoples also exercise their rights in these waters.

Canadians want to ensure that navigation on these waterways can be protected now and in the future, including on our heritage and longest wild and free-flowing rivers. They expect that their public right of navigation is being protected.

When I was appointed Minister of Transport in 2015, the Prime Minister gave me the mandate to review the Navigation Protection Act with a view to restoring lost protections and incorporating modern safeguards. After an extensive review and consultation process, we are now proposing to amend the Navigation Protection Act and create the new Canadian navigable waters act to fulfill this commitment and better protect the right to travel on all navigable waters in Canada.

The new Canadian navigable waters act is the product of more than 14 months of consulting with Canadians, which began with a study of the previous government's changes by the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Madam Chair, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the standing committee for the time it dedicated to this study and for its recommendations. The standing committee's work provided a solid foundation for the new Canadian navigable waters act.

The proposed Canadian navigable waters act was also informed by the views of indigenous peoples, provinces and territories, industry, recreational and environmental groups, and the general public. Waterway users have told us clearly that they want oversight on all navigable waters in Canada, more transparency and clarity around processes and decisions, greater partnership opportunities for indigenous peoples in administering navigation protections, and observance of the need for processes to remain efficient and predictable.

The proposed Canadian navigable waters act addresses these concerns. The act will contain a new requirement for approval of major works that significantly impact navigation on all navigable waters, such as large dams or other works, and authority for the Minister of Transport to regulate obstructions on all navigable waters.

Madam Chair, the government is committed to open, accessible and transparent processes. It is a question of public trust.

The Canadian Navigable Waters Act would provide better rules that will deliver greater transparency about proposed projects that could affect navigation, to make it easier for Canadians to have a say in projects that concern them.

We recognize that, to participate in decisions, Canadians need to know about projects before they are built. The Canadian Navigable Waters Act would require that project proponents notify and engage with potentially affected communities and waterway users before construction of a project takes place on any navigable water.

Should this early engagement leave unresolved navigation-related concerns for works, the government would now have the ability to review these concerns and require the proponent to seek an authorization if appropriate. This new resolution process would give Canadians a better and more modern way to raise navigation concerns for a project proposed in any navigable lake or river in a more efficient, timely, and modern manner.

The act would also require that the department establish a new public registry to house project information and information on decisions. This would help communities stay informed, participate in decision-making processes, and access information over the long term.

The Canadian Navigable Waters Act also provides for an improved, more inclusive schedule, allowing a layer of extra oversight to be provided for navigable waters where it is needed most, including those of particular importance to Canadians and indigenous people.

I must recognize the critical role the navigable waters have in supporting the indigenous peoples of Canada and their ability to exercise their rights. We have heard that water is critical to their way of life, and the Canadian navigable waters act has been proposed to further our goals for reconciliation in a number of ways, but most importantly, to facilitate partnerships between Canada and indigenous peoples in administering the proposed act within their traditional territories.

The proposed act supports a strengthened relationship with indigenous peoples based on recognition of rights, respect, co-operation, and partnership that is responsive to indigenous peoples and that aims to secure their free, prior, and informed consent. The act would require consideration of and protection of indigenous traditional knowledge and the consideration of any adverse effects that decisions may have on indigenous rights.

We also recognize that stronger navigation protections are only of value to Canadians if they can be robustly enforced. That is why the Canadian Navigable Waters Act would include new modern enforcement powers and stronger penalties.

Madam Chair, the proposed Canadian Navigable Waters Act is an important element of the proposed new impact assessment system that will protect our environment, our fish, and our waterways, while rebuilding public trust and respecting indigenous rights. This new system will require a rigorous assessment of a full range of impacts for projects that have the potential to pose a significant risk to the environment in areas of federal jurisdiction.

Furthermore, the proposed changes to the Fisheries Act will restore protection measures for all fish and fish habitats and create new fisheries management tools to enhance the protection of species and ecosystems. This broad new system will consider a whole range of potential impacts for any project designated for review—not just on the environment, but also on communities, health, indigenous peoples, and jobs. Decisions under the Canadian Navigable Waters Act will be fully integrated into this new impact assessment system.

To sum up, this proposed legislation will provide navigation protection for all navigable waters as a significant contribution to the new impact assessment system. It will also create more accessible and transparent processes, making it easier for indigenous peoples and the public to engage in projects that affect their communities and to resolve navigation issues of concern to them. Our navigable waters are the common heritage of all Canadians, and the right to travel on them must be protected. The proposed new Canadian navigable waters act will do this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

Before I open to questions, I'll introduce your team.

You have Martha Green, senior counsel at legal services; Michael Keenan, deputy minister; and Nancy Harris, executive director for regulatory stewardship and aboriginal affairs.

Thank you very much for joining us today.

We'll start with Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Given the shortness of time, I'm going to share my time with Mr. Amos.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with your team.

As you know—we've talked about this before—Dartmouth, my hometown, is known as the city of lakes. I assume you've seen it from space. Protecting these lakes in the city of lakes is incredibly important to my community and to me.

The historic Shubenacadie Canal Waterway flows through my riding, through the lakes, and into the Shubenacadie River. This is a historic waterway that was first used 4,000 years ago by the Mi'kmaq. The entire waterway is used by first nations, paddlers, boaters, anglers, and others.

I've read many positive comments on this legislation. This is a great quote from someone who actually sat around this table, NDP MP Wayne Stetski. He says:

It is a reversal from the actions taken by the former Conservative government and it helps protect our lakes and rivers from damaging development or dumping.

I've also read concerns about this legislation by the WWF and other environmental organizations:

Give all lakes and rivers the same heightened level of oversight that is currently reserved for a few designated or “scheduled” rivers.

Minister, can you tell us a little more about why this distinction was made and why we wouldn't add all lakes and rivers to this list?

I'm also interested in how individuals will apply to have a waterway added to this schedule. I'm curious as to whether the average person with concerns is going to be able to navigate this process.

Thank you.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Fisher. There are several questions there.

First of all, I have seen the beautiful city of lakes myself. I lived in Halifax for many years and was often over in Dartmouth, so I have seen many of those lakes and, of course, the Shubenacadie waterway. I know how important it is.

The thing that's important to remember here is that the protections we are re-establishing, which were removed by the previous government, address all navigable waters in Canada, not just those that are in the special schedule—which, by the way, will receive additional scrutiny because of their particular importance, whether it's for commercial shipping, recreational purposes, or the protection of indigenous rights.

Anytime somebody wants to put a major work on a navigable water, it will have to receive approval. Anytime there's an obstruction on a navigable water, I have authorization to have it removed. Anytime somebody wants to build any work on any navigable water, there will have to be a notification process beforehand to say that this is what we would like to do. It will be examined very carefully, depending on whether it constitutes a major work, a minor work, or something in between. The protections are for all navigable waters.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll be looking forward to hosting on Lake Banook the 2022 Canoe Sprint World Championships.

I'm going to pass the remainder of my time to Mr. Amos.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Minister, and thanks to the civil servants who support the minister.

This legislation comes after so many years of frustrated democracy. Just to set the context, in 2008, when the major changes were made to navigation protections, there were 10 meetings to discuss those changes and only 21 witnesses. In 2012, when further changes were made to navigation laws and buried in Bill C-45, the budget bill, there were two meetings. I would submit that we are emerging from what was previously an incredibly undemocratic process and bringing it back to a better democratic place. You are part of this process, and I thank you for being here.

As part of the stripping back of navigation protections, Canadians who care about navigation—many of my constituents in the Pontiac—were forced to resort to the courts. They were forced to rely upon their common-law navigation protections.

I would like you, Minister, if you would, to comment on where we've come from and where we're going, in light of that situation.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

There's no question that the legislation that was changed by the previous government gutted the protections that existed for our navigable waters. I was there at the time. I remember spending a great deal of time on that particular act when the government decided to make the changes. It ended up making many navigable waters essentially unprotected, and that was a totally unacceptable situation as far as we were concerned. If you didn't like it, you could go to court. Of course, that's a very long and very laborious and sometimes very expensive process.

What we've done is change it by making the new Canadian navigable waters protection act apply safety and security measures to all navigable waters. As I said, if somebody wants to build something, there has to be a public notice. The information will be put in a public register held by Transport Canada. We will go through a process of determining whether it's a major work, a minor work, or something in between.

In some cases, if it's truly a minor work, it will be pre-approved. If it is a major work, something like a dam or some other major work, it will have to go through a very formal process, as you know. If it's somewhere in between, there will still have to be a process.

If it's in the special schedule, there will be the full-blown approval process. If it is not in the schedule, there will have to be a process by which it's determined whether it is acceptable or not. Instead of having to go to the courts, there will be a process that will be streamlined, whereby my ministry will make a decision on whether it constitutes an impediment to navigation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Sopuck.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

The wilful ignorance shown by the government about this particular act is truly breathtaking. Since the government wants to conflate the protection of navigation with environmental protection, I want to ask the minister an environmental question.

Your government wants to impose a $50-a-tonne carbon tax. You have a science background; I'm looking for a number. How much will Canada's greenhouse gas emissions be reduced after a $50-a-tonne carbon tax is imposed?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Mr. Sopuck, did I hear you say you wanted to ask the Minister of the Environment? She's not here today. I'm the Minister of Transport. I'd be very glad to answer any questions—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You sit around the cabinet table. I want a number.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I'd be very glad to answer any questions you might have on the proposed Canadian navigable waters act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

On a point of relevance—

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

This is very relevant. This government insists on conflating the environment and navigational protection.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

On a point of order, go ahead, Mr. Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Central Nova, Lib.]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My understanding of the Standing Orders, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the question must at least be relevant, if not to the legislation we're dealing with, then to the portfolio of the minister before the committee.

Am I mistaken?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

No, you're not mistaken. That's why I suggested that we look to the relevance of the question with the minister who is in front of us today.

Maybe we can reframe the questions to be relevant to the minister who is with us today.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

I'm responding to the point of order. This is relevant.

None of you were here before. We have parliamentary privileges. This is the environment committee, and obviously the minister is refusing to answer a question about the environment.

I now relinquish the rest of my time to Ms. Block.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

[Kelly Block, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, CPC]

I want to thank my colleagues for providing me with this opportunity to join them to question the Minister of Transport on part 3 of this bill, which addresses the changes to the Navigation Protection Act.

Given that you yourself, Minister, directed the transport committee to undertake a study on the Navigation Protection Act, and given the questions I've already heard coming from your colleagues on the other side, I would suggest that it may have been more appropriate for this bill to be split, so that the transport committee could have finished the work it began. Nevertheless, we on the committee are left to presume that all the work done by our committee has somehow found its way into this bill.

Given that the transport committee does not have the opportunity to ask questions of you on this piece of legislation, I would ask you to give us just one example, post 2013, in which navigation was negatively impacted because of the NPA rules' being in place and not the previous Navigable Waters Protection Act—just one specific example.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

In my opening remarks, I thanked the transport committee, of which you are a member, for the very good work they did, which created a solid base on which to advance the amendments that subsequently came. I hope it registered with you when I thanked the transport committee.

With respect to splitting the bill, I believe—

[Kelly Block]

I would like you to answer the question I've asked. I would like one specific example where the Navigation Protection Act impeded navigation in the way it was written.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I am not going to give you that example, but I will comment on your comments. The comment you made was that the bill should have been split. I believe that question was—

[Kelly Block]

Madam Chair, point of order.