Evidence of meeting #139 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pricing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Smart Prosperity Institute
Fair enough.
Under former prime minister Harper, it was designated under CEPA, the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, as a pollutant, so yes.
In terms of the last question, on farm fuels, liquid fuels are exempt, so a $1,000 carbon price will have no impact on on-farm use of diesel. In the buildings, absolutely. But there's no incentive there for energy efficiency in on-farm fuel use.
4:50 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
[Inaudible—Editor] electricity directly.
4:50 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Smart Prosperity Institute
Farms could get credits. If farms can do methane reductions, they can generate credits. With on-farm manure and waste, if you can generate renewable natural gas, the clean fuel standard under the federal government will provide an opportunity for reductions and credits.
4:50 p.m.
Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
So the feed that I buy, the transportation to move it, the inputs that I do to grow my crops, the fertilizer, the inputs, all that has a carbon tax. In fact, some of the research we did on agriculture—because we were looking at it—said about $7,000 on average in Ontario, because every dairy farmer is also a cash cropper in some way.
I'm just trying to get an understanding. How does our innovation...? Carbon pricing drives innovation. How do we rate with our innovation compared with that of our competitors? Are we that far behind that our innovation is really far behind without a carbon price?
Mr. Cameron, go ahead.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Clean Prosperity
I think the point is that you want your innovation to be ahead of the pack. You don't want to be second or third. There's no prize for second. If you're ahead of the pack, then you're able to export your innovation around the world. That's really where we want to be.
There's no question—
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Clean Prosperity
I'd say we're in the middle of the pack. That's not where we want to be for competitiveness.
4:50 p.m.
Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
In Ontario, in the dairy industry.... Do you know where they come to for innovation with new equipment that comes from Europe and other countries? They come to Ontario, because we're a leader in terms of the innovation and the ability to take that risk to move forward.
On rebates, I'm always interested when a government wants to rebate. Can you tell me how much a rebate actually costs, the percentage of a dollar that goes back out?
Mr. Beugin, go ahead.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada's Ecofiscal Commission
Sorry, clarify the question, please. I don't understand.
4:50 p.m.
Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, CPC
On rebates, when we have rebates, that's a government collecting the money, deciding who's going to get something back, and then writing a cheque. Do you know what the percentage of that would be of what's collected, what's returned, what the efficiency of that is?
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada's Ecofiscal Commission
You're talking about transaction costs and the cost to government of operating that process.
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada's Ecofiscal Commission
I think they are quite small, given that the CRA already provides rebates and given that those rebates are equal across different households. There's no customization of those rebates. It's uniform.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Wow. Holy cow, what a great panel. It's just phenomenal.
I just want to clear up a few things there from Mr. Shipley. Canada's emissions are just under 2%. Its population is 0.5%. In terms of its per capita emissions, where do we rank now? I think we have always been kind of one and two globally. Is that true?
4:50 p.m.
Associate Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
A few oil-exporting Middle Eastern countries are higher than us, but we're among the leaders.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Among OECD countries, we're number one per capita. Do you not feel that it's our moral responsibility to be responsible for our own pollution? Would you agree with that?
4:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Canada's Ecofiscal Commission
I think we can go even further. If Canada is not taking action to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions, what reason do we have to expect that other countries would do the same? That is exactly the nature of the collective action problem that is climate change. Only by all taking action can we address the significant costs and risks that arise from climate change.
