Environment Committee on May 15th, 2019

[Michael Nadler]

Again, one of the transformative elements of that funding and those investments is that they are bringing together multiple jurisdictions, indigenous groups and a much broader collectivity of interests in responding to what is a very serious situation, as your constituent observed. That is transforming the management of species and conservation from within the boundaries of individual protected areas to looking at landscapes and really respecting the fact that animals don't care much about our boundaries, right?

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Can I just interject there? One of the other questions that came up at my last climate action town hall was whether or not we're protecting species across borders. When you're talking about how they don't care about our lines but they have their landscapes, are we also protecting across borders? I guess the immediate border is the U.S. one.

[Michael Nadler]

Or even provincial ones, right?

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Oh, of course.

[Michael Nadler]

We manage ecological spaces at Parks Canada that traverse boundaries, and it really is important to be able to work effectively with multiple provinces and, for that matter, multiple communities.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Even across the U.S.-Canada one?

[Michael Nadler]

Yes, even with the United States.

I guess in some ways the convention on biodiversity is really focused on bringing nations together around these issues. There are a number of initiatives, in which we play a part, that are looking at the movement of species. Climate change is causing shifts in ecosystems. They're not respecting the original boundaries of protected places either, because of a changing climate, so we've had to reshape how we approach collaboration across borders and jurisdictional boundaries.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Just to be clear—because I'm always asked, “What are you doing now?”—do we actually have some initiatives right now in terms of across borders? We're hoping to do more. I think you gave the great example of the work that we're doing internationally, which I think will help to increase the amount of work that we do across borders, so we are doing some things right now.

[Niall O'Dea]

Yes. I think a key example, a concrete example, would be the North American wetlands management program. This is a long-standing collaboration with the U.S. that actually sees a lot of U.S. counterpart funding come to support the conservation and protection of wetlands in Canada. Don't pin me on the number, but I think some $800 million has been provided through that fund over the years to support wetland conservation.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

How do we compare to other countries in terms of protecting our biodiversity? How are we doing? If I look at the top five countries that have a lot of biodiversity, how are we doing in terms of protecting our biodiversity and our species that we have here?

[Niall O'Dea]

If we look at the international reporting, I think we are on par, if not better than many, but none of us are doing great. There are close to 600 species on the endangered species list in Canada. That's in part a matter of identification and quantification, but it's also revealing of the challenge. It's a small part of that one million species challenge that has been noted by the international group, but it's certainly an area where we all have continued room for improvement and a global challenge that we're making efforts to address currently.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think we have one more minute, Mark. Go ahead.

[Mark Cauchi, Director General, Protected Areas, Canadian Wildlife Services, Department of the Environment]

Just to add to Niall's comments, I think one of the things that people are really excited about in terms of Canada's approach is the bringing together of the species and the spaces in the nature fund as a holistic approach of managing these issues together, looking at cross-border issues, as you say, looking at it nationally and looking at it regionally and locally.

I think that's what has generated a lot of excitement, as well as the really tremendous progress that's been made on a hectare basis, both terrestrially and in terms of the ocean targets. We were at 2%, I think, a few years ago, and we're getting to 8%. There's been a real push, thanks to the committee's help, all-party support and tremendous support on the part of Canadians, to really make progress.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Great. Thank you.

We have six minutes for Mr. Aboultaif and Mr. Hoback. You can divide up the time however you like.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

Good afternoon.

I have a document here on “Conservation Finance in Canada” that lists five areas where financing can be available to, first of all, deal with the environment and enhance environmental responsibility and in the meantime generate jobs and so forth. It's all good: green bonds, ecotourism, conservation fees, renewable energy development, debt restructuring and carbon offsets.

Have any of these areas been tackled? Have you done any calculation of what the costs are and what the anticipated costs can be for any government to take on this program? How optimistic are you for a good result from practising such things?

[Niall O'Dea]

It's a good question. I think we are in the early days of working on conservation finance.

The traditional financing of conservation through government, foundation and other resources is well established. An area that we focused on in the recent nature summit was a discussion on innovative finance mechanisms for nature conservation. There is progress on that happening globally.

These are things such as looking at how something like wetland or peatland conservation could contribute a carbon offset that would be counted within a kind of cohesive carbon trading system. It can include other things. The environment minister of the Seychelles joined us in Montreal and spoke to a debt-for-nature swap, where, with international financing organizations, they were able to exchange sovereign debt for a commitment to a certain percentage of nature conservation. That's likely not a similar challenge for Canada but certainly on a global basis is a legitimate avenue of pursuit.

Certainly, private sector companies such as Shell have expressed strong interest in exploring opportunities for nature-based solutions. Often, that comes in looking at where an offset for an existing industrial activity could be provided through something like conserving an area of forest or an area of wetland for the long term, in exchange for the development of a resource project of one kind or another.

There are series of pieces of work under development. I'd say that it is early days. In terms of the actual quantification of what that could provide in the Canadian context, it's something on which we are working to deepen our analysis currently.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

These programs are twofold. One is engaging the private sector in helping, away from government direct involvement, assisting or supporting the efforts to deal with the environmental challenges. On the other side we have the examples from around the world that could be beneficial to us in taking on something like this. We can look at similar economies under the G7 or the G20 and learn from advanced countries.

Are you aware of any good examples that Canada could look at from that perspective? And why not speed it up? I believe that by engaging the private sector in programs like this, we could speed it up and get to the target faster than in a government initiative.

[Mark Cauchi]

Just to add to what Niall was saying, there's lots of experimentation happening in the United States with green bonds. Particularly at the municipal level and state level, we've seen a lot of experimentation there. Canada is looking at what's happening in many places in the U.S. in that respect.

Endowments have been discussed quite a bit in this space. The Rainforest Trust in B.C. is an example of one in Canada. Certainly, there's lots of interest in potentially looking at that in the future as well. We are working on this. It is complicated, but at the same time, we're managing the Canada nature fund and moving funding into communities. We are very much interested in the innovation space. We plan to do more work on this, including looking at places like the United States and elsewhere for inspiration.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thanks for your time, guys. I appreciate the information. One thing we're seeing in Saskatchewan with these funds coming in and buying property is that they're not taking local expertise into context. To use an example, down in southwestern Saskatchewan we have a bunch of ranchers. Lots of grasslands have been purchased, and instead of working with the ranchers, they've gone their own way. They upset the local community and they upset everybody else. They really didn't get the desired results in protecting the environment. There are other examples of where they worked with the ranchers and worked with the community and all of sudden had the desired results.

What is your process of making sure, as you administer these funds, that we will actually achieve the results and that we will include the entire community in the area in which those funds will be spent?

[Mark Cauchi]

As Niall mentioned in his opening remarks, the foundation for everything we're doing, really, is partnership. We will be supporting projects with federal dollars that have the ability to demonstrate partnerships and consultation and collaboration. That's really inherent in and endemic to what we're trying to do here.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

What kind of evidence shows that? What I'm concerned about is that you have a lot money to spend and they themselves have a lot of money, and there may be more focus on spending the money than actually achieving the results.

[Mark Cauchi]

One thing we've done as part of the proposal phase is to ask for letters of support from partners. We want to see demonstrations of support in the community for various proposals for protected areas. We are giving a certain degree of points in our assessments for proposals that have strong partnerships. We recognize that it takes everyone, and that some partnerships do take time to build. Obviously, we want to reward and put our money behind those projects that have strong partnerships and collaboration.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Excellent. Thank you.

Mr. Bossio.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you very much for being here today. It's great information. I have a lot of stuff I want to talk about, so I'll try to go quickly.

I really commend the investments through the Nature Conservancy of Canada and Ducks Unlimited Canada. In my own riding there's the Napanee Alvar. The Nature Conservancy has bought a big chunk of that land. It's having a huge impact on the endangered species the eastern loggerhead shrike, which is really important to our region. I'm really proud of the fact that we've gone to great lengths to protect this species.

A big part of the report highlights protective corridors for forest wildlife, which we see in the west but not so much in the east. I know that in the report Will Amos and I spoke about the corridor between Algonquin, La Vérendrye and the Adirondacks. I know that a number of people and a number of groups are trying to do that, but the conservation authorities are organizations that could play a really strong role in Ontario, especially eastern Ontario. Unfortunately, as you heard, the Ford government has cut funding for the conservation authorities just at a time of the massive flooding that's happening in eastern Ontario this year and in past years. They're cutting to the bone there. The problem for the local conservation authorities is that they'd love to buy this land, but their operational funding keeps getting less and less every year.

Is there anything we can do, as a government, to help offset that and take advantage of this incredible resource to try to build that for the connectivity in corridors in eastern Ontario, Quebec, and upstate New York?

[Niall O'Dea]

There's certainly a strong emphasis within the investments that we're making to look to enhance connectivity between existing protected areas where we can. As you note, there are a number of players that have interests in land, including conservation authorities, that can help to make some of those linkages. I've seen maps of various places in Canada, including Ontario, that show the kinds of contributions that these small landholders or land managers can make to create those critical connections for wildlife.

I think that in the context of our current funding envelopes, those types of proposals are eligible and welcomed. It will be, I think—