Environment Committee on May 17th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

I'm going to have to cut you off there. Sorry, Mike.

We have just finished one round. We're going to move into the second round. We did get the okay from the witnesses to stay on.

Is everybody okay to stay on for another half hour?

Okay. We'll maybe move our subcommittee meeting to the beginning of next Thursday. We'll work that out later.

We'll move into the second round.

Go ahead, Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to all the folks here for being so patient. To those of you who have come back after being displaced last week, I certainly appreciate your putting up with our hectic schedules.

This question would be for Ben. I'd like to know more about the Towards Sustainable Mining program.

[Ben Chalmers]

Sure.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I read about the program. It focuses heavily on self-assessment and it seems that there are very few external assessments. The external assessment data that we can find is based on previous self-assessments, which I find interesting.

If you look at one company's last TSM progress report, they don't have any formalized reporting or communications around biodiversity at all. They admit to having conservation management as part of their closure plans, but nothing really for the duration of the operations. In all of the reports, “biodiversity conservation management” is extremely vague.

During your comments, you spoke about performance indicators and public reporting. Do you feel this is good enough? Are you getting better?

[Ben Chalmers]

TSM is based on a foundation of self-assessment. Every year, every mine that participates self-assesses. Every third year they are required to undertake an external verification. You see a third of the membership verified each year.

Part of that process also includes the role of a national advisory panel that's made up of aboriginal interests, environmental NGOs, social NGOs, and the financial community. There are about 12 individuals on this panel who also have a role in inviting a small number of companies each year to go through a post-verification review. It's a multi-layered verification process.

The biodiversity indicators are new. The program itself has been around for ten years. We've been reporting on performance around biodiversity for three years. The initial results were relatively low in terms of measuring the systems in place that companies have for managing their biodiversity conservation obligations. We've seen that doubled in the last three years from between 20% and 30%, depending on which of the three indicators you're talking about, to over 60% in some cases. We're making progress.

I admit that we have a way to go, but I think one of the important parts is that we're not afraid to put out into public view that in some cases we don't have these systems in place but we're working towards it.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Let's say a mining company is given permission to mine in a protected area. We have closure plans that are mandatory prior to mining. The TSM program looks at the tailing plans, waste water, and more. Have there ever been issues with closure plans not going through—for instance, if a mining company were to go out of business before they could kick off their closure plan in a federally protected area? Are there any example of something like that?

[Ben Chalmers]

In a federally protected area? I can't think of a case in a federally protected area.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

So what would happen, then, if a company went bankrupt prior to kicking off...? It seems one of the strengths is the closure plan, but not necessarily the plan while they're actually in operation.

[Ben Chalmers]

In these eventualities, one of the key parts of regulation that covers all of Canada is bonding requirements. Companies are required to post reclamation bonds so that if they are not in a position to fund their reclamation obligations themselves, that money is already put up, with a plan in place so that someone can come in and address that.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

What kind of bond would be there? Would it be multi-millions of dollars?

[Ben Chalmers]

In some cases, it is hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That happens every time?

[Ben Chalmers]

The amount depends on the plan, what has to be done. A mine that requires very little reclamation at the end of the day will have a smaller bond. A mine that has a very large reclamation obligation will have a large bond.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

As more land is federally protected, there's a possibility that's going to mean less land for mining exploration. Do you believe that there can be uniformity there? Do you feel that you can do sustainable mining successfully in a protected area?

[Ben Chalmers]

From my own personal experience, I started in the mining business working at a small mine called Myra Falls out on Vancouver island. This mine was located in the centre of Strathcona Park, which was the first provincial park in Canada. The mine and the park coexisted very well for over 40 years. We were partners. The mine undertook a lot of the activity to help support the park, such as keeping roads open and whatnot through the winter, helping to repair bridges, and that sort of thing. It was an unusual arrangement, but it worked in that case.

More broadly to your point, in determining what lands to protect, I think it's important to also make sure that we're investing in geoscience to understand where the mineral opportunities are, the high-value mineral areas. That's not to say we should always decide that a piece of land with mineral value should be a mine, but it's to say that when we make these decisions, we should understand both the ecological value and the economic productive value and make decisions based on complete information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You have 45 seconds.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Were there sustainable mining practices in the last 40 years? You talked about the mine from your town coexisting well for 40 years.

[Ben Chalmers]

Yes, there's been a lot of learning and evolution as that particular arrangement progressed. There have been changes in tailings practices over the 40-year history, and changes in safety. I talked about our national advisory panel. That mine had a provincially mandated advisory panel made up of park stakeholders who helped oversee how the two interacted.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

That's a provincial park?

[Ben Chalmers]

Yes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, Ben

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you.

Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate all the people being here today.

To Kate Lindsay from the Forest Products Association, one of the things is the technology that's involved in biodiversity. As the Forest Products Association looks at an area, could you briefly describe, for example, the satellite technology that's used in defining biodiversity areas as you do extensive research into possibilities for forestry harvest?

[Kate Lindsay]

Thank you for the question.

The technology would differ across Canada, but typically a detailed forest inventory is collected. Sometimes it is in collaboration with the province and sometimes a private company will do it themselves, and you are exactly right: they will use satellite technology, and lidar is starting to be used in many cases. That provides a very detailed analysis of what biomass is on the ground: tree height, volume, species composition, ecosystem classification, etc.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It details wetland areas and the whole scope of it so it's a really detailed process, and there's much science-based research going into these products.