Evidence of meeting #25 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nene.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
I have one last question.
We do not yet have IPAs within Canada. Is that correct?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
They haven't been formally recognized by the Government of Canada.
5:15 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
Not yet.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Okay.
Have you been having conversations with the Government of Canada about moving in that direction?
5:15 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
Others have. I've been talking about Thaidene Nene only.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you for coming back and speaking with us again. I really appreciate the relationship between indigenous protected areas protecting land, and reconciliation.
A number of scientists and stakeholders have been suggesting that we need to go beyond the 10% and 17% protected targets to potentially protecting about half of land and inland water in Canada. I'm interested in what you think of that objective, that sort of conservation target. How do we get to those targets moving into the future?
5:15 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
I would agree with those targets, and I would again go back to the IPAs and indigenous communities right across the country. Every indigenous community has a traditional territory. Every indigenous community has special places within their traditional territories that they would like to protect and manage in a way that's going to sustain them for their generation and future generations. Every indigenous community wants to see that happen. If that happens, then I would suggest also that industrial development within the traditional territories outside of these IPAs will become much more attractive.
In your role as a committee that is responsible for the environment and sustainable development, I think there are some synergies that can be created through the creation of IPAs and other land use plans within traditional territories of indigenous people right across the country.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC
You said there were 70 IPAs in place in Australia, but I missed what percentage of the land is covered by IPAs.
5:20 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
Well, 40%-plus of Australia's protected areas are IPAs.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
As everyone else has said, thank you so much, Steven, for coming back in. Just as our trip was, today here in Ottawa is extremely informative on how we can try to move forward to meet these Aichi targets and on the pivotal role that indigenous communities play in getting us there.
Ed and Will—everybody, actually—have asked a lot of the same questions that I was looking at.
We saw that the recipe for success for the Haida people was the unifying factor of the Haida people coming together as one voice. You've said that even with the overlapping land claims you have come together as a people, as one voice, in this agreement.
What do you feel is the underlying factor? This is one of the biggest conundrums. You spoke about it yourself. There are some people who have no interest in conservation. There are some people who have no interest in working together. What is the underlying factor that you see and that will bring different peoples together in common cause, with indigenous communities in particular, to try to get to this Aichi target, to get to those IPA types of agreements?
5:20 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
There's a great deal of fear in indigenous communities right across the country in terms of working with crown governments because of the historical relationship. That fear is stunting any kind of ambition that indigenous communities may have in managing their lands using federal or provincial legislation.
Recognition of the nation-to-nation relationship based on Supreme Court decisions and just based on human decency—whatever you want to call it—I think will go a long way in creating a relationship that will identify values.
For example, even within Thaidene Nene, in terms of how we're moving ahead on lands and resources discussions, there are overlapping claims there. But through discussion and collaboration, Canada, the Government of Northwest Territories, the Akaitcho and Lutsel K'e first nations, along with the NWT Métis Nation, feel that the area in question is significant and is important enough that we could put that in the forefront and work towards the protection of that area, putting the jurisdictional arguments and positions aside to achieve the protection of Thaidene Nene through the National Parks Act, and eventually, the NWT Territorial Parks Act.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
What came first? The unity of the people or the concept of Thaidene Nene?
5:20 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
It was the concept of Thaidene Nene.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Okay. That's a little different from the Haida example, where the people came together first and Gwaii Haanas came out of that.
On the concept of Thaidene Nene, did it come from the Lutsel K'e people first or did it come from the government? Who approached who first?
5:20 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
The proposed park was presented by Canada back in the late 1960s. That's when the 1969 land withdrawal was done. That was over 7,000 square kilometres. At that time, our chief of the day, Pierre Catholique, refused to sign any documents to create a national park, because of the historical relationship where indigenous people were alienated from their traditional territories when these things happened. That's been sitting there.
The invitation by Parks Canada and Canada to Lutsel K'e has always been there. Lutsel K'e sat on it for the longest time, but industrial development pressures and threats to traditional territories were what triggered the elders of the community and those of us in the younger generations to pursue a protected area.
We didn't just jump to Canada. We've done international research on best practices. At the end of the day, the Gwaii Haanas and Haida Gwaii relationship gave us the comfort to approach Canada to see if there was still interest on Canada's part, with the understanding that we will build on the relationship that was established between Parks Canada and the Haida Nation.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
We have talked about this. Was the Haida relationship that was established with Parks Canada the catalyst for your people to say, “Okay, they went inside the box and figured out how to make this work by taking that leap of faith. Maybe we need to have the confidence in ourselves and in the government to do the same thing,” now that you had that example?
5:25 p.m.
Lead Negotiator of Thaidene Nene, Lutsel K’e Dene First Nation
Yes, we certainly had the confidence in ourselves. We had to convince Parks Canada to go there even after they agreed to pursue a negotiation settlement. We threatened to step away from the table if they didn't go down that road with us, and it took them a while to get on that road with us.
