Evidence of meeting #35 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Virginia Poter  Director General, Industrial Sectors, Chemicals and Waste Directorate, Department of the Environment
Olivier Champagne  Procedural Clerk

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Eglinski Conservative Yellowhead, AB

I'm just wondering about this. By using “must” over “may”, aren't we going to say “must (a), must (b), and must (c)”? Or do we want “may (a), may (b), and may (c)”? To me, I think if we're trying to put in legislation to make sure those things are done, then “must” says they must be done.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Mr. Gerretsen.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I think that in the interest of creating a strategy, it's sometimes better to leave the opportunities open for that strategy to evolve and to be built on its own through that consultation process. In consulting with the various different levels of government when identifying these particular bullet points here, these three particular strategies or considerations for the strategy, if you say “must”, then you're forcing all three to be absolutely necessary, whereas the other way you give a bit of latitude to the whole point of the national strategy.

The national strategy is about getting out there and finding out the information so that you can then build the strategy. I think it's kind of prescriptive, and when you do that in advance, you limit the ability to allow that to occur.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Mr. Genuis.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

To give some clarity to this discussion, because we're talking about some specific points, I'd like to move a subamendment then, so we can discuss the subamendment, debate it, and vote on it. I will move that we change “the strategy may include” to “the strategy must include”.

For the reasons laid out, these three things are, I think, all important, which is why Mr. Fisher put them there. They identify practices for the safe disposal of these lamps, the establishment of guidelines, and the development of a plan to promote public awareness.

There is a great deal of latitude in terms of how the government does each of these three things. However, I think it is reasonable for us, as legislators, to say to the government that the strategy must include some element of these three parts. Again, that's not to be overly prescriptive about how these things are done, but it must include some element of these.

Certainly it doesn't limit the government from doing more. The government can certainly do things outside of these three areas as part of the proposed national strategy. However, I don't at all think it unreasonably fetters the discretion of the government. As I said before, to some extent, the purpose of legislation is to limit the discretion of government where appropriate, but I don't think it does so unreasonably at all. I think it's conducive to the intent of Mr. Fisher's bill, which is to have a strong bill, a strong statement, that's going to ensure that action is taken.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Okay.

Mr. Choquette.

5:10 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have two comments.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Just to be clear, we're debating the subamendment.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

I would simply like to say that I will support the subamendment. Once we have finished dealing with it, I would like to put forward a subamendment of my own.

My Conservative colleague explained his point of view well. His arguments were very relevant and very well explained. I also think that this strategy needs to be a bit stronger, more rigorous. That would not prevent us from working in coordination with other groups.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Mr. Fisher.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

On the subamendment, in the spirit of having true collaboration and allowing the governments to own their jurisdiction, I'm going to support “may”, and not the subamendment of “must”. It will be up to the governments that are implicated in the strategy to choose how best to implement that strategy.

I won't be supporting the subamendment. I'm content with it saying “may”.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Okay.

Is there any more discussion before we call the vote on the subamendment, which would be to replace “may” with “must”?

(Subamendment negatived)

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Madam Chair, could I ask, procedurally, whether that vote is recorded—the members who voted for and against?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Yes, we have it.

5:15 p.m.

An hon. member

No, you have to ask for it to be recorded.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Oh, okay.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Am I too late to ask to record the fact that it was Conservatives and NDP who voted in favour and Liberals who voted against? Is it too late to ask for that?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You missed the chance on that one, but if you ask ahead of time, we can do that.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

On a point of order, the whole point of asking after the vote is that you've seen the way the vote has gone.

5:15 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh!

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

No, seriously, you can—

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Well, you might be able to do that municipally, but I've just been told that you have to ask for it ahead of time.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Okay.

It happens all the time on our defence committee, and it's always asked for after the vote.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I mean as a point of just—