Environment Committee on Nov. 24th, 2016

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I had understood that to be the case as well, so we're spending a lot of effort imposing huge resources and time costs on retailers in Canada to undertake surveys that are not, for the most part, delivering the outcomes we expected those surveys to deliver.

Am I correct in—

[Jason McLinton]

That has been our experience to date, yes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

All right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You have a minute.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'm fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

You're good? Okay, you got what you needed.

Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks, folks, for being here.

Jason, we talked as recently as Tuesday. We've spoken about the precautionary principle and the safe substitution process numerous times with this study. I'm interested in your thoughts on the regulated safe substitution process.

How do you think that's going to affect or would that affect the retail association, the retail industry?

[Jason McLinton]

Let me take that one back with me. I'm familiar with the precautionary principle, but in terms of safe substitution, my comments are based primarily around surveys of substances that are not of concern right now. In terms of substituting substances that are of concern, I would like to take that back with me and provide a written response. Thank you for the question.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Bill, I'd like to ask you a question.

Under part 9 of CEPA, the Minister of the Environment has to consult any territorial government. Also, she has to consult a national advisory committee, which represents all aboriginal government. I'm interested in your thoughts on how that's working. Do you feel that the consultation process is solid? Do you feel that you have a place at the table as far as the need for aboriginal communities to be represented on CEPA is concerned?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Generally, we don't feel that we're being represented. Maybe one of the specifics you might want to look at would be to make specific reference to the agreements that we have. For example, I mentioned the Tlicho agreement.

Right now, in most of the legislation, you use a generic term that says this legislation will not abrogate or infringe upon.... I can't remember the exact wording, but you use a generic term that says you will not violate our rights. But if you turn that around a bit and say we have a land claim agreement that is very specific when it comes to water, we have to adhere to it, then you make mention in the legislation, you make specific reference to the Tlicho agreement, to the Gwich'in land claim agreement, to the Sahtu land claim agreement, to spell out those agreements in there. Then when something comes before you, you go to the chapter in that agreement and can say, “Wow, we didn't realize. This is beyond consultation. We need to get their approval because the Supreme Court of Canada says, in particular instances, when there are serious matters, you need their consent.”

For the short part of it, we don't feel we're being adequately involved at that level. That's where we need to go.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Are you saying you feel we need to get absolutely specific, word for word, and take everything as literally as possible to the point where you feel—

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

No. I'm saying, rather than having a motherhood statement that says we're not going to affect your rights, you're going to say that you are going to implement these agreements. Yes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Right. That's what I'm saying.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

You have to get to the point.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

You're suggesting you want it to be absolutely nailed down to the exact point of what the—

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Yes. The agreement I keep referring to, it took them 22 years to negotiate it. It's up to us now to implement it. If we did, we would take care of a lot of the problems that are out there.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I'll continue with you, Bill, if I could. I asked this question the other day about vulnerable populations. Can you give me some specific substances that are affecting aboriginal communities more than others?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Chemical substances?

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Yes.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

I can speak best for up north. I'm from Yellowknife. I live in Yellowknife. It's on Great Slave Lake. It's been factually documented that there are toxic chemicals coming from the tar sands south of us, which include arsenic and other contaminants. They're coming from the tailings ponds that have been there for many years.

One of the things you might want to look at is to eliminate those tailings ponds. It would take some money from the federal government, the provinces, and industry so that you get rid of the tailings ponds and then you get rid of the leaching that occurs. It's real. It's happening.

It happens all over the country. The problem is, water moves. Our scientists will tell us it's difficult to tell you exactly where it begins and where it ends, but it is possible if you invest.

[Prof. Parisa A. Ariya]

I think you can actually.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

How do you deal with that problem?

We heard on Tuesday that some of these toxic chemicals are five times the amount that you'd find in other parts of the country and you're talking about remote areas. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with the tailings ponds?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

You have to make it a priority.

Again, you look at the water basins in North America. Some of the water is coming from the United States and some of it is coming from Canada, so it's transboundary. You have to have an agreement with the United States, into Alaska, and you have to have an agreement with Mexico.

Part of our problem is that we don't have an energy plan. There's no energy plan. There are no plans in any of the provinces or territories. There's no first nations plan. That's what needs to be developed. That needs to be a paramount issue with industry—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Madam Chair, I don't have a minute left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Sorry about that.