Evidence of meeting #81 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was adaptation.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I'm hoping that the committee will call me to speak to that act specifically, because right now I'm here to tell you about our fall reports.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Okay. As it relates to the work you're here to talk to us about today, you said that five of nine of the departments had fully evaluated their risks. Was that correct?
October 31st, 2017 / 9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Five out of 19 departments had done anywhere from a reasonable to an excellent job. We had 19 departments to look at, and we were struggling with how to chunk them. There were the ones that did almost nothing, if not nothing. Then there were a few that did some things, and then a few that did an excellent job, and then a few in between. As a result, we cut if off: either you did a good job or you didn't do a good job, and five out of 19 did anywhere from a reasonable to an excellent job of looking at all their climate change risks and assessing them.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Based on your experience as commissioner and what you may have seen prior, would you say that what is being done now is better or worse than five years ago?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
We looked at the 2011 framework on climate change adaptation that the Government of Canada passed. In that framework it says that each department is supposed to assess the climate change risks to its assets and the delivery of its programs. We looked at that commitment and whether or not the departments were meeting that commitment.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
You've been before this committee before with this same update.
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
No. I'm talking now about climate change risk adaptation. You might be talking about strategic environmental assessment. Those are two different tools.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
No, I was referring to the climate change update. Maybe it's in information that you've provided to us.
Where do you see the challenges? You said that some of the departments would provide the information if it was going to cabinet, but not if it was going to the minister. I know now we're talking to the strategy, but can you explain why you think that is?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
It's probably a combination of push and pull: ministers need to request it and staff need to provide it. When we're talking about strategic environmental assessment and the use of that cabinet directive, it's probably a little of both, when it goes to ministers. As it pertains to climate change risk and risk analysis, we found that the departments that went ahead and did it took their own initiative, their own leadership, and went ahead and followed this guidance and did it, while other departments did not do that.
That's why our recommendation is that Environment Canada has to step up to the plate, but other departments also have to take an initiative to assess their climate change risks.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Do we have the right oversight body to enforce that to happen?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
That's up to Parliament to decide.
In other countries the sustainable development strategy reports directly through...say in Germany, to the chancellor. It is not in one department. In the case of the federal sustainable development strategy, that whole government-wide strategy is run out of an office of a director general in Environment Canada, who is not a very senior official.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
If you were to make a recommendation as a way to instill more accountability, would you look to a model like the one you just referenced in Germany?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
When I appear before the committee on this issue, I'll give you the recommendations at that time, if that's all right.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
You know what I really want to talk to you about.
Thank you.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
She's ready.
You have 30 seconds. Is there anything else?
No. Okay, we're moving on to Mr. Sopuck.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you.
In 1987 the Brundtland commission's report, “Our Common Future”, defined sustainable development as “the ability to make development sustainable to ensure that it meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.”
Do you agree with that definition?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
That's a definition that Parliament suggested?
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
No, that's from the Brundtland commission.
Do you agree with that definition of sustainable development?
9:20 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
It doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. The definition I use is the one the Government of Canada decided on.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Okay. Well, that's the accepted definition of sustainable development worldwide. I happen to have been a delegate at the Earth Summit in Rio in 1992, and it was the Brundtland commission definition that was accepted by all countries, so I think it's the most accepted definition of the concept.
Interestingly, the Federal Sustainable Development Act, according to your report, “requires the federal government to develop a strategy intended to make environmental decision making more transparent and accountable”.
Clearly the Federal Sustainable Development Act only deals with one leg of the stool, the environment side, and is clearly not a sustainable development act. Would you agree with that?
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Are you saying the current Federal Sustainable Development Act?
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Yes, I just quoted what your report says about making environmental decision-making more transparent. At the Earth Summit it was very clear that sustainable development is a development concept, yet the Federal Sustainable Development Act only focuses on the environmental aspect of development. Clearly, the Federal Sustainable Development Act is inadequate.
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
The current Federal Sustainable Development Act and the federal sustainable development strategy indeed focus on environmental sustainability and not the three legs of the stool that the Brundtland commission....
The Federal Sustainable Development Act also indicates that sustainable development is an evolving concept, so if you look at the definition by the Quebec commissioner of sustainable development, it is even broader.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
How it's implemented is evolving. The definition is not.
In terms of in your report, you talked about the impacts of wildfires, floods, and extreme weather events that are being felt across the country, and on and on. Why didn't you provide any data to back that up?
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
I could provide all that data. There is nothing in our report that doesn't have backup data, so we could provide all that data to you. It comes mostly from Natural Resources Canada.