Evidence of meeting #88 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Gelfand  Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Ferguson  Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Principal, Office of the Auditor General
Nick Xenos  Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

I mentioned that the purpose is looking at sustainable development and not just environment. If you look at the purpose of the original act, it's about environment. The purpose of the new bill is sustainable development. I was pleased to see that in the purpose of the act. It's moving from just the environment to sustainable development. I believe that the new bill no longer requires performance contracts with the deputy. That's a decrease in accountability. I've suggested that you reincorporate that. We've also suggested that the deputy head sign off on the sustainable development progress report, much like a deputy head would sign off on financial statements saying that everything was complete, which is what we get when we look at the financial statements. We should get the same thing on the sustainable development strategies. These are all complete.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Ms. Gelfand.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Go ahead, Mr. Shields.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to welcome you back, Commissioner.

It's always great to be here with somebody of your expertise and knowledge. We always learn from your answers.

You've made some interesting comments that [Inaudible—Editor] my background when you talk about standardization in a sense—

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Madam Chair, I can't hear the translation.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You can't hear the translation.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

It's not a problem.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Sorry. I wasn't sure what you said because there was no translation.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

That's no problem.

Sorry, my friend.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

That's no problem.

Standardization is an interesting topic. I spent a year on a committee in Alberta where we were working with wetlands and the government wanted a policy. It took us a year to get a definition of what wetlands are, to be able to have something as a criteria.

To get something at grassroots to develop up so people will do more than just a little greening of whatever else, I think is a challenge for you. I'm very familiar with ACT, SAT, MCAT, LSAT and the development of those and input into creating them. It's post-secondary education and developing standardized mechanisms to deal with students. Those are always an extreme challenge. You're talking about, at 20% doing something and 80% not doing something, yet referring to a greening as superficial.

I'm a carrot guy. How do we incentivize an approach? I'm not into the penalty and the hammer because I don't think that gets you what you need or what you want. Accounting has had a long history of centuries of numbers and principles and we're moving into a new area. However, for you to do your job—and you talk about reporting back to parliamentarians and meaningful assessment. I'm saying, what's the meaning of feedback to the departments and staff, so they understand it?

To me, that's the most critical piece. Acts are irrelevant to me. I want those guys in the department to have some meaningful feedback, so they can see how they've changed or what they need to do. To me, that's what an audit is for.

How would you envision developing criteria from the grassroots that are going to be meaningful? I like standardized. I like a common date. You've mentioned a few things, but how would you see this happening?

9:30 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

That's a great question to ask the Treasury Board.

What I am seeing is a kind of standardized reporting system with a big, broad outline, so that when we or you are looking at 90 of them.... If they're all written completely differently, I don't know how we're going to tally them all up, if you know what I mean.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Yes.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

It would help if at least there's a provision saying, “We'd like you to report on international commitments. What have you done on those?”

I haven't even thought about all the elements of standardization. What we have thought about is what we would do with 90 departments reporting using different formats and how we would ever be able to utilize that information in a way we could present. Also, how would you look at those 90 and make any sense of them? It's more a case of a standardizing of reports—

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

It comes to you to have to deal with it, so that's what I am asking you.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

We will think about it.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

You're going to have to deal with these 90 buckets. You have to have some ideas of how it could work. Treasury Board is one thing, but you have to end up at the bottom line.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

We could, if you wish, definitely provide some advice—but not right this second—on what we think would be a standardized reporting mechanism.

Can we do that?

9:35 a.m.

A voice

I suppose so.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

You have to end up with the buckets.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

Yes, and so do you.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

But you provide the report card.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

Julie Gelfand

Absolutely.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

We can look at the report card, but you have to build it.

9:35 a.m.

Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Treasury Board has all the rules they can make, but you're the key.