Environment Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Deb Schulte]

Thank you very much. That was perfect timing.

The ministers have very graciously given us two full hours of their time to be with us at committee for questioning, so we have an opportunity for one more round.

We have Mr. Sopuck sharing with Ms. Stubbs.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thanks.

That last sentence was complete nonsense, Minister.

I find it amazing—and this is directed to officials— that... Under the proposed $50 per tonne carbon tax, has there been a report written or an analysis done that shows what the reduction in CO2 emissions from Canada would be under a $50 carbon tax?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We have done modelling. When you look at the climate plan that was negotiated with the provinces and territories, we have looked at all the measures and how they work together, so that we have a plan that will take us to our target.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Well, give us a number. I'm asking for a number.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I will pass it over to my deputy, Stephen Lucas.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

This is a very fair question because whatever environmental action you do, there should be an environmental outcome. You put a scrubber on a smokestack and SO2 goes down. You plant grass on fragile land and soil erosion goes down. You get very specific results from environmental actions, but it's quite clear that, under the $50 carbon tax that this government is proposing, this government has absolutely no idea what the reduction in emissions will be.

Could you please respond to that?

[Stephen Lucas]

As the minister indicated, the modelling that we do, through a transparent process with the provinces and consulting with expert groups, and that we provide in our annual reports that are public, and in reports to the United Nations, includes carbon pricing. It includes the carbon pricing that British Columbia put in place many years ago and that other jurisdictions have. There are interactive effects with other measures, but the recent report provided to the United Nations in December 2017 showed the single biggest drop in emissions since we've been reporting, which includes the effects of carbon pricing in those jurisdictions that have those plans to contribute towards meeting our target in 2030.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Yes. I've heard this answer before. In fact, I saw it on the show, Yes, Minister when Sir Humphrey was in front of a committee, so thank you for that very opaque answer.

Again, I'm going to make the point. Canadians are being asked to pony up money for a carbon tax, yet this government has absolutely no idea what the effect will be and will not provide any numbers to back it up.

I will now turn my time over to Ms. Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you.

Clearly, the carbon tax buying social licence is baloney, since Alberta was the first jurisdiction in all of North America, more than a decade ago, to regulate targets for reductions in emissions and implement a carbon levy on major industrial emitters, yet we still face significant opposition to energy development in Alberta and the construction of pipelines.

I must revisit this issue with the Minister of the Environment, since I ran to the end last time. It's very concerning, so I just want to give you another opportunity to clearly condemn the violent actions of the illegal protesters at Burnaby on Monday, who injured those RCMP officers who were just there to do their jobs.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

As I said, we support our RCMP officers—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Do you condemn the violence of the protesters—

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

—and we support the actions that they take.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

—against the RCMP officers?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We always support our RCMP officers and the actions they take. They work in very difficult circumstances and the Minister of Public Safety has been very clear on that.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm asking you if you condemn the violence.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We have the right to—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I'm not worried about the Minister of Natural Resources because he said he'd bring in the military about a year ago to get this thing built. I think the concern is that you refuse to condemn the violent actions of illegal protesters and anti-energy activists for votes because you want to keep that soft—sorry—NDP, left, and anti-energy activist coalition of voters in British Columbia. Therefore, it is very concerning to me that you, a senior minister speaking on behalf of the government, will not condemn illegal, violent, physical attacks on RCMP officers. I think you should answer clearly that yes, you condemn it.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Violence is never appropriate, but to your broader point, I've been 100% clear that we approved the Kinder Morgan pipeline, and that we went through—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think that goes without saying. Do you condemn the violence?

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, you just said that we were trying to appeal to voters who might not support the project.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

No, you. I mean you.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I, certainly, have been 100% clear that that project went through robust review—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

So, just as clearly, condemn the violent attacks against RCMP officers by illegal protesters in Burnaby.

[Catherine McKenna, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I will be clear. Violence is never appropriate, but people have a right to free expression.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

So specifically with regard to the RCMP officers who were injured on Monday, do you condemn the violent acts by those illegal protesters on those RCMP officers?