Evidence of meeting #6 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carol Najm  Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services and Finance Branch, Department of the Environment
Christine Hogan  Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Matt Jones  Assistant Deputy Minister, Pan-Canadian Framework Implementation Office, Department of the Environment
Niall O'Dea  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Wildlife Service, Department of the Environment
John Moffet  Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Annie Boyer  Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Resources Management Branch, Parks Canada Agency
Darlene Upton  Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation, Parks Canada Agency
Terence Hubbard  Vice-President, Operations Sector, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada
Nancy Hamzawi  Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology Branch, Department of the Environment
Diane Campbell  Assistant Deputy Minister, Meteorological Service of Canada, Department of the Environment
Michael Nadler  Vice-President, External Relations and Visitor Experience, Parks Canada Agency

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Yes, the environment department is doing its own research. Outside the department, a report on plastic was completed.

I'm going to ask the deputy minister to answer your question about the research currently under way at the department.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Madam Pauzé, you have 15 seconds.

Do you have another question?

9:10 a.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

Ms. Hogan, would you care to comment?

9:10 a.m.

Christine Hogan Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

I would just add a few words about the department's scientific program. It's a vast program. We are conducting research into health and the environment, and we are also working closely with Health Canada.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Madam Collins, you have six minutes.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you so much for coming today.

I am going to follow up on a few of Madam Pauzé's questions.

Environment and Climate Change Canada is seeking a total of $5.92 million to strengthen environmental protection and address concerns raised by indigenous groups regarding the Trans Mountain extension project.

Can you explain which environmental protections will be strengthened and how those were determined?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Sure.

Let me start by saying that there were very significant investments made to address a range of environmental issues well in advance of this particular portion of money. The oceans protection plan, for example, is $1.5 billion and looks at a whole range of issues around response, around strengthening local capacity and around science.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

I'm sorry to interrupt, but to add to that, to frame it up a little bit, $150 million was unspent from the oceans protection plan and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This is a significant amount, especially compared to the $5.92 million here.

I'm curious about that unspent money as well. Is it being invested back into these kind of environmental protections?

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

With respect to the money that you refer to in Fisheries and Oceans, I'd be happy to get you a response. I think that question has been asked in the House of Commons in question period, and the Minister of Fisheries has provided a response, but I'd be certainly happy to provide another one.

With respect to the money for Environment Canada, as you know, additional consultations were done with indigenous communities in the aftermath of the decision of the court of appeal. There was a significant amount of conversation and also of working to accommodate concerns that were raised. A number of initiatives are under way. The initial amount of money is in this year's budget, but it's actually a three-year profile that relates to a whole range of initiatives in terms of strengthening local capacity, for example, of indigenous communities.

9:10 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

We are able to dig into and have some transparency around this $5.92 million. The only mention of the Trans Mountain pipeline in the estimates is this $5.9 million. We have recently learned that the construction costs are going to be $12.6 billion to finish construction. That's with us borrowing and it's in addition to the $4.5 billion that we already spent to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline, which never came to Parliament. The government hasn't publicly released the Trans Mountain Corporation report that yielded the most recent $12.6-billion cost estimate so the public can actually understand what it includes and what it does not, and assess future risks.

We know that the Canada Trans Mountain pipeline finance corporation borrowed from another Crown corporation, Export Development Canada, yet we've not seen that corporate plan.

As MPs, don't you think we should have the opportunity to study the financial risks of Trans Mountain? Why is that huge expenditure, which has such significant impacts on the environment and significant impacts on our ability to meet our climate targets, not subject to parliamentary scrutiny? Will the government be making that information available to Canadians?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Let me say a couple of things.

First of all, with respect to the comment that it will imperil our ability to meet our climate target, that's just not true. The upstream emissions associated with the Trans Mountain pipeline were included in the pan-Canadian framework, so all of the upstream emissions are actually included in the plan to achieve our targets for 2030 and eventually to exceed them. That recognizes that we are going through an energy transition, where hydrocarbons are going to continue to be used for a number of decades to come—

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Would you mind just focusing, at least for a moment, on the transparency?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I am responding to what you actually said in your question.

The Trans Mountain pipeline is an important part of both an economic and an environmental strategy.

With respect to the costs associated with the construction of the Trans Mountain pipeline, again, I think we're here to talk about the environmental estimates, and that's not in the environmental estimates. However, what I would say to you is that there was a public statement by the Minister of Finance with respect to the costs associated with the pipeline. What he said at that time was that we fully expect to recoup those costs when the pipeline is sold.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Just to be clear, I am asking why this huge expenditure is not in the estimates. Why are we, as members of Parliament, not able to dig into this the way we are able to question you about the $5.9 million that we're talking about to strengthen environmental protections and address concerns raised by indigenous groups?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

Again, I would say to you that I am the Minister of Environment and Climate Change. Even if it were in the estimates, it wouldn't be in my estimates.

My understanding is that today we are actually focusing on the estimates for Environment and Climate Change Canada, but what I would say to you is that the Minister of Finance made a statement with respect to that project. We fully expect that those costs will be recouped.

9:15 a.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

You did mention quite a bit in your statement and just now about meeting or exceeding our targets. We heard from the environment commissioner, who said, “For decades, successive federal governments have failed to reach their targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, and the government is not ready to adapt to a changing climate. This must change.” This is from our outgoing environment commissioner.

I'm curious whether you agree with that statement, given the estimates that you've tabled today. Is the government not ready to adapt to a changing climate? Do you think that we're on track?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Madam Collins, your time is up. Thank you very much.

Mr. Mazier, you have five minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for coming out this morning.

Minister, in 2017 your predecessor, Ms. McKenna, referred to the Manitoba climate and green plan as one of the best climate plans submitted by a provincial government.

Last week, that plan was resubmitted, and it included a carbon levy and exemptions for farm families.

I have a simple question, Minister. Will this government approve the Manitoba climate and green plan, yes or no?

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

What I would say to you is that we have not yet received a formal proposal from the Government of Manitoba. We certainly will assess it when we receive it, but it will be assessed against the federal benchmark, as we have done with proposals from all provinces and territories.

As you know, the federal benchmark with respect to the price on pollution is $30 per tonne this year, and it increases annually by $10 per tonne until 2022.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Excuse me, Minister. So, you haven't seen even your predecessor's...and you didn't talk about it at cabinet and you haven't seen the proposal, so you have no idea what that plan was.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC

I am very aware of the proposal that the premier has made publicly in the press.

What I am saying to you is that we actually wait for provinces and territories to provide us with their proposals in writing, and we assess them against the benchmark. That's what we do with every province and territory, and we will be doing that with Manitoba when it submits it. It will be compared against the benchmark, which is $30 a tonne at this time and escalates to $50 over the next couple of years.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

Okay.

I don't know if you get the gravity of how important it is to the Province of Manitoba to have this plan approved. There are a lot of struggling farmers out there. They are struggling to pay their bills, and a lot of the struggling on the financial side of it is from the carbon tax that's been imposed on grain drying and space heating.

It's causing a lot of financial stress. It's also causing a lot of mental stress. As a matter of fact, the Manitoba farm and rural stress line is starting to receive increased calls.

I don't know if you see any correlation, Minister, between farmers' accessing mental health services and the impact the imposition of the carbon tax has had on farmers, especially since you have imposed those carbon taxes. I don't know if you see any correlation in that or if you have heard anything about that.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

Is that relevant to the supplementary estimates?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB

It's the financial stress that has caused this.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Mr. Mazier, stay within the supplementary estimates. Bring relevance through our supplementary estimates. How about that?

I know that a lot of you are new members and we have—