Evidence of meeting #35 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jacques Maziade  Legislative Clerk
John Moffet  Assistant Deputy Minister, Environmental Protection Branch, Department of the Environment
Émilie Thivierge  Legislative Clerk
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

That was going to be my question, Mr. Chair. Is this just a rhetorical exercise, or does this actually meaningfully tackle the issue in a different way?

Conservatives are committed to acting on climate. My leader has been very clear on his commitment to the ESGI principles and towards working with industry. This seems to be more billing for the government in terms of communications than actual substantiveness. Conservatives will be opposing. I'm sure Mr. Saini will not take that personally.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Bachrach.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

At the risk of belabouring this, I think the intention here is just to make it clear that the goal isn't getting to net zero in 2050. It's acting in an immediate and dramatic way to reduce emissions. We heard testimony that expressed some concern about the way the deadline was being framed.

To Mr. Albas's point, absolutely, it's a point of communication around the intent, more than it is something that's binding, but it's still something I'll support for clarity.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Can we go to a vote, then, Madam Clerk?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Madam Clerk, we're voting on Mr. Saini's amendment. Is that correct?

5:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Angela Crandall

It's new clause 6.1, I believe.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

We're voting on G-2. Is that correct?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

G-2 is creating a new 6.1.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(On clause 7)

We'll go now to clause 7 and CPC-1.

Before Mr. Albas moves it, I would just mention to the committee that if this amendment is adopted, I believe it will have to.... There are other CPC amendments seeking the same goal of changing the word “Minister” to “Governor in Council”, so this will run through the bill, as I understand it.

Go ahead, Mr. Albas.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the members of the committee for their consideration of CPC-1. Obviously the goal of tackling climate change requires a whole-of-government response, which means buy-in from the Governor in Council, or to those who may be unaware of the term “Governor in Council”, the cabinet, as it makes decisions. The minister would set a national greenhouse gas target and submit that to the Governor in Council. The Governor in Council would debate it.

Now, we've heard today that there are some who would like to see more action, some who may want to see the same, and some who may even just want a change in direction because technology is constantly changing. Obviously this is a great country, and provinces and their governments change. Perhaps new information comes up. We think that by approaching it from a Governor in Council point of view, with the cabinet itself endorsing any change, this will be a stronger piece of legislation. There will be further buy-in from different departments, given that the respective cabinet ministers would have been involved in ratifying that decision.

I would ask all members if they believe that if there is an informed target that is set and given to cabinet—so that cabinet then deliberates, comes to a conclusion and rallies behind that—then we would have a much better bill.

Perhaps there might be some further debate where I might need to jump in to clarify it, but the idea, Mr. Chair, on this one, is again that you have a whole-of-government response to deal with these issues.

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Seeing that no one else wishes to speak to this, we will go to a vote on CPC-1.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

Thank you.

We go now to PV-6, which has been deemed moved, but I invite Ms. May to speak to it.

Ms. May, before we go to your comments, I'm told that if PV-6 is adopted, PV-7 and PV-8 become moot, as they would be inconsistent with the decision on PV-6.

Go ahead, Ms. May.

5:25 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There have been a number of consistent points raised by most of the witnesses from whom we've heard, from those who have submitted written briefs, and in public discussion of the weakness of the bill. The first thing, of course, is that the first milestone year should be 2025, not 2030.

I'm just going to explain the thinking process behind putting forward three amendments with declining ambition. As the act is constructed, if we were to simply put in a milestone year at 2025 without embedding what that target would be, we would be creating a very, very steep hill to climb for the process of consultation that's embedded in the act. I think that's what created the impression for many within the government that somehow or other we couldn't actually have a milestone year before 2030, although the U.K. did immediately on passing their bill in 2008; their first milestone year was 2013. It was the same with New Zealand, who just passed their act, as I mentioned, in 2020. Their first milestone year is 2025. They've chosen a different route, with an expert scientific group to tell them what the target would be in five years' time; the milestone years.

Actually, the Liberal platform led me to believe that this was what we would see—a first milestone year in 2025, and subsequent ones every five years thereafter. That's what is embedded in the COP21 decision document, that we would upgrade. Countries were certainly encouraged to improve their targets, their nationally determined contributions, in 2020 and, in the language of the COP21 decision document, every five years thereafter.

In light of the structure of the whole act to make it somewhat process-heavy to deliver a new target for a first milestone year in 2025, I want to suggest in these amendments, starting with PV-6, Green Party amendment 6, that the target be embedded in the legislation. There's even more support for this now than there was at first reading, because now we have the government accepting, as I understand it, that the target for 2030 is to be embedded in the legislation. The target for 2025 being embedded in the legislation is certainly a help.

I want to stress this point to members of the committee. We've already accepted, in article 14 of the Paris Agreement, an obligation for a global progress report, called a global stock-take, in 2023. If we had a 2025 milestone year, as this amendment proposes, we would then be triggering the two years in advance. We'd have a progress report ready. That would fall in 2023, and then every five years thereafter we would be right in sync with what we've agreed to do under the Paris Agreement, with global stock-taking at five-year increments, starting in 2023.

Again, the first one of these starts with the notion that we would embed in legislation right now that by 2025 we would accept a target of 25% reductions below 2005 levels to be achieved by 2025. That's steep, because we now know that the government is committing to somewhere between 40% and 45% below 2005 levels in 2030, but as a first attempt....

I'll speak to all three at once, Mr. Chair, just to avoid repetition.

In my first amendment, I propose that we do the right thing. The United States is aiming for 50% reductions below 2005 by 2030. Let's do a mid-decade checkpoint with teeth. It's more than what the NDP is proposing. It's not just a progress report, but an actual milestone year for 2025, at 25% reductions.

Feeling that there should be some room for flexibility here on what that target should be, my second amendment in this series, GP-7, says, okay, let's make it half of what you aim to do by 2030. The Prime Minister's improvement in our target is certainly welcome. It's not enough to meet the IPCC science, but it's far better to say that by 2030 we'll be 40% to 45% below 2005 levels.

Well, if we have any hope of getting there—40% to 45% below 2005 levels by 2030—surely we should be prepared to say that our first milestone is 2025, and let's see if we've gotten to 20% below 2005 levels by 2025.

That's the kind of heavy lifting we're going to need to do to meet the demands of this crisis. It's an emergency. In COVID, we didn't say to Theresa Tam, “I know you're telling us that the science says to stand six feet apart, but we'll give you three feet and that should be good for you—that's our political interpretation of the science.”

No. We actually have to adhere to the science, and we should be going much steeper than 40% to 45% below 2005 levels if we're serious about holding to 1.5°C. A 20% milestone, a 20% reduction against 2005 by 2025, is the second amendment.

If you want to go easy and think, “Let's start slow and let's just make sure we can hold our feet to the fire; let's see if this act is working and see if we're reducing emissions,” there is a third amendment. So far, it's not just that we haven't ever met a target in Canada. It's that we have gone directionally in the wrong direction against every target we've set. That's the more serious problem, so the third amendment calls for 15% below 2005 levels by 2025.

These three amendments, any one of them, will strengthen this act enormously. The best one, of course, is to go to 25% below 2005 levels, with a milestone year in 2025. Again, this will be consistent with commitments we've already made for a global stock-take in 2023 that will alert us as to whether we're on the right track in 2023 to hold to our targets or not. The milestone year brings with it accountability. It brings with it a review two years in advance. It brings with it the possibility of the minister's saying, “Okay, what we're doing isn't working, so let's get on it.”

I urge this committee to consider any one of these three amendments—PV-6, PV-7 or PV-8—but clearly, PV-6 is the one that your children would vote for if they were around this table.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Ms. May.

Madame Michaud.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to make it clear that I agree with Ms. May in using 2025 as a milestone year in the bill. I am going to have to vote against amendment PV-6 because we are ready to let the Minister establish a 2025 target in his plan by himself.

I also want to specify that we want the reference year to be 1990, as is the case in Quebec and the European Union, and to no longer use 2005 as a reference year. That is why will be voting against this amendment.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. Albas, the floor is yours.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly want to reply to MP May's suggestion here.

I believe that there is a huge value in accountability, but the fact remains that this number has been picked, and again, we can agree...is the number too high or too low? We can have discussions over that. Ultimately, for the government, if we simply give it a target that is not within reason and cannot be attained, then I think we are setting ourselves up for more failure and more cynicism.

I'd much rather have it so the government can, through, as I said earlier, a whole-of-government approach—which may not be possible given that one of our amendments was rejected—discuss with the expert panel and with Canadians and post the target, and then be held accountable because it's something they did in discussion with so many.

I think that for us to be picking a number and then saying “here's the number” outside of what has been committed to.... For example, Mr. Chair, you were there when Mr. Harper worked with his provincial counterparts and asked for their input as to what targets should be taken to the Paris accord. What was taken to Paris, sir, was the result of government discussions between 10 provinces, three territories and the federal government to come up with a national target. That is what was taken there. For us to simply put in our own best guess as to how things will merit that, I don't believe would be helpful.

That being said, once the government announces it, it should work a hundred per cent towards those targets—something we just have not seen from this government yet.

While I'm not going to be supporting this, I hope my colleague Ms. May understands that I think it's just a disagreement about the number itself, and not that the government should not be taking action to work with industry, to work with other governments, to work with different stakeholders and to work with first nations on an achievable number that Canadians can count on. Then, as parliamentarians, we can hold them accountable for it.

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Albas.

Seeing no further speakers, we can vote now on PV-6.

(Amendment negatived: nays 11; yeas 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We now move to amendment PV-7.

Ms. May, you have already discussed your amendment. Do you have anything to add?

5:40 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

No, I have already made my arguments for amendments PV-6, PV-7 and PV-8, in order to help the committee in its work.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay, so we will go to the recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 11; yeas 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We will now go to the recorded vote on amendment PV-8.

(Amendment negatived: nays 11; yeas 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We are now at amendment CPC-2. I must point out that, if we pass amendment CPC-2, amendments BQ-7 and G-3 cannot be introduced because they seek to amend the same line.

Mr. Albas, the floor is yours to discuss your amendment.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to put this forward, to have it debated and to see where other individuals on this committee are coming from. Similar to what I said earlier, climate change is a very real phenomenon, one that requires everyone to do their part, from the individual to their community to their province, all the way up to the federal government, and everything in between. This is one of the reasons we believe the Governor in Council or cabinet should ratify before these targets go out, so that they are subject to....

As we know, Mr. Chair, cabinets are not all equal, but one thing I think every Canadian government, from the founding of this country on, has strived to do is make sure there is a wide variety of voices, whether that be regional or other criteria. That's why we think there is more buy-in when there is a whole-of-government approach. When the Governor in Council or cabinet ratifies something, it is meaningful. Everyone around that table has their hand in it and will do their part to work towards it.

Mr. Chair, beyond that, again, this is something that my leader has talked about—the need for action and the need to have individuals around the table who are informed and working together. That's something we don't always see, and it's something I think Canadians would like to see more of.

I would ask all members on the committee to consider this and to vote in favour.

Thank you.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. Albas.

I see no further speakers.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Just give them a little time, Mr. Chair. They're just digesting all of the—

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Okay, I'll give everyone some time to digest Mr. Albas's pitch.

I still don't see any speakers, Mr. Albas. I'll call the vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

That means we can discuss amendment BQ-7, if I'm not mistaken.

Ms. Michaud, would you like to introduce your amendment?