Environment Committee on June 16th, 2021

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for their thoughts on this very important topic.

Dr. Jones, I want to offer you an opportunity to finish your thought, because it felt like you got cut off there. Then I can dive into my other questions.

[Dr. Lynn Jones]

Like I said, my thoughts got kind of broken up there.

I wanted to say that what is really great about this bill is that it is national. We tried to address environmental racism, for example, at the provincial level. Although we made headway, we didn't make it through, because there needed to be.... The concerns happened not only, for example, in Quebec, but the racism is the same across the country.

If we're going to deal with environmental racism, I think it's imperative that it be from a national perspective. The provinces will still have an opportunity to do all these great things that we're talking about within their province. We're not taking that part of the bill away.

I'll just leave it at that. I could go on and on about the trickle-down effects and all that kind of thing, but I'll leave that for another day.

Thank you.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Dr. Jones.

I'll turn next, perhaps, to Ms. Gue or Dr. MacDonald.

At the beginning, Ms. McLeod mentioned the UN declaration. Given the impact of environmental racism on indigenous people, and given where we are in the conversation about indigenous rights and the need to include indigenous people in decision-making, do you think that adding an explicit reference to the UN declaration in this bill would strengthen it? How do you think that would best be handled in the context of the legislation?

I'm sorry. I know when a question is posed to a whole group of witnesses, it just confuses things. I'll try to be more specific. We'll start with Dr. MacDonald and then, Ms. Gue, you can add your thoughts.

[Dr. Elaine MacDonald]

I'm not sure I could advise on how it would best be handled, but absolutely, it would strengthen the bill to have a reference to UNDRIP in the bill. Whether it's in the preamble or written into the actual content of the bill I can't really speak to, but certainly I would support such an amendment.

Just to comment on the issue around the consultation with indigenous people too, most of my experiences have been working with the Aamjiwnaang First Nation. Certainly they call their situation environmental racism, so it is hard to imagine that they would not support a bill that is targeted at addressing environmental racism. They don't shy away from using that term at all when they talk about their situation.

If that is at all helpful to the committee, that is one piece of information I can pass along.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's very helpful, thank you.

Ms. Gue, do you want to chime in on that topic?

[Lisa Gue]

I don't have too much to add. I agree with Elaine that, in principle, a reference to incorporating an explicit reference to UNDRIP in the legislation would seem to be quite consistent with its intent and it's always best to have these intents explicitly stated and woven into the legislation.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Ms. Gue, as you know, the NDP has long fought for environmental rights to be recognized in legislation, and we're very pleased to see a reference to the right to a healthy environment embedded in Bill C-28. Unfortunately, that bill has been stalled. It hasn't been debated in the House yet and we're disappointed that it hasn't moved along any further.

How does this bill that we're talking about today, Bill C-230, relate to the concept of environmental rights?

[Lisa Gue]

Mr. Bachrach, thanks for your long history of advocacy on environmental rights at the municipal level, as well as in Parliament.

We too are encouraged that the government has introduced Bill C-28, and at the same time, we are discouraged that it has yet to be debated. I hope to have the opportunity in the not-too-distant future to return to your committee to discuss those important measures related to environmental rights and other really critical updates to CEPA that are an important complement to Bill C-230.

In terms of your specific question about how the two relate, as Elaine already said, they are complementary. I would note that, of course, Bill C-28 is primarily amending the Canadian Environmental Protection Act and the provisions related to environmental rights and environmental justice that are specific to the authorities of CEPA, whereas Bill C-230 takes a broader view of federal actions.

There are other legislative authorities relating, for example, to the management of nuclear power, nuclear waste, federal environmental assessment and pesticide regulation, just to name a few that could have implications. I think it's a strength of Bill C-230 and, again, an important complement to what's being proposed in Bill C-28, that the proposed national strategy would take a holistic, whole-of-government view to redressing environmental racism.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you. That's just about all the time we have for the first round.

We will now begin the second round; each member will have five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to offer my thanks to all of our witnesses for coming today to share their expertise. It is most welcome.

I'm going to start off with Dr. MacDonald from Ecojustice.

Doctor, you did mention in your initial statement some concerns around the transparency and reporting process. It was a very minor reference. I would just like to hear a bit of a broader explanation of what you meant by this bill creating a consultation process. How would you like to see the reporting done?

[Dr. Elaine MacDonald]

I'm an engineer, so I love to dive into stuff about data. I was referring to the comparison between what the United States has—something called EJSCREEN, which stands for environmental justice screen—versus the paucity of what we have in Canada. The closest thing I can point to is the national pollutant release inventory, which has no information at all on demographics. All it does it provide pollutant discharge information on a facility basis across the country. If you were to look at the website for the NPRI, you wouldn't even get close to being able to find out the type of information you can from the U.S. EPA's EJSCREEN, which is a system that was set up after the executive order. You can zoom in on a community. You can see exactly what the demographics of that community are and what the exposures are.

I was really contrasting the gap that exists between the U.S. and Canada, and how much we need to catch up to make this information transparent. Collect it, analyze it, put it on the web, make it transparent, and then everyone start using it when they're making decisions that could impact racialized or indigenous communities.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Obviously, Canadians have long known that parliamentarians have had ongoing discussions and journalists have had ongoing discussions about transparency regimes between Canada and the U.S., where the U.S. model seems to be more open by default.

It says here that the government will then do consultations with provinces, first nations and other communities. The issue I would have is just that, obviously, when a government reaches out to a provincial government, that information is shielded in access to information requests because it's between governments. I'm not sure about other communities, like municipal discussions, first nations or other groups, as Dr. Jones has said, because there are other elements where these discussions could apply.

Do you have any concerns about a lack of transparency or a lack of equity in terms of access to information?

[Dr. Elaine MacDonald]

I would say yes, I do. In my own work, I am often jealous of the excess of information and data available in the U.S. compared to Canada. That's not just at the federal level. I would say it's at the provincial level, too.

With respect to your point about collecting data for provinces and making sure that data is held as private, I think much of the information that is held on the U.S. EPA website, EJSCREEN, could be collected from the federal government. I don't think that they would need to necessarily go and collect that from provinces. We have StatCan, which collects demographic data. Air monitoring data that is collected by the federal government across the country could be put into such a website.

I can think of lots of sources. It's just a matter of putting it together, analyzing it and making it publicly available so people can use it. I don't see that as a barrier as much.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I appreciate your saying that.

I'm going to go over to Ms. Gue.

Ms. Gue, thank you for presenting DSF's opinion on the bill and some concerns. Again, I've always raised concerns—I've done this publicly in the House of Commons on this bill—about where you may talk to one silo over here and then another silo that has responsibility for that piece of legislation. That often doesn't result in a whole-of-government response. Talking to one department doesn't give you action in another.

You've mentioned how the U.S. has done it differently. Maybe you can elaborate on how that could be done more effectively within the Canadian model.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Answer very briefly, please. We have about 30 seconds.

[Lisa Gue]

The national strategy that this bill calls for is a really important start. Particularly important is the requirement that it be tabled in Parliament and for regular reporting.

Yes, there are opportunities to build on what this bill offers through some new governance structures in Canada that could take inspiration, perhaps, from what has worked in the U.S. and build on it.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair

Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today.

I'd like to start with Dr. Jones.

Dr. Jones, you spoke a bit at the outset about your community and some of the impacts on your community. For those folks who maybe are new to the concept of environmental racism, can you help explain why you think environmental racism exists?

[Dr. Lynn Jones]

Environmental racism cannot be separated from the history of our country.

I also chair the Nova Scotia chapter of the Global Afrikan Congress, which addresses the atrocities of what happened as a result of the transatlantic slave trade that we don't like to talk about in Canada.

From the perspective of African people in Canada, we've been dealing with racism for well over 400 years, since we came to the Americas. It only stands to reason that it touches every aspect of who we are, and our being. We cannot divorce it from how we live and the environment in which we live, and what happens to us as a result of coming to this country.

For other racialized groups, they come at different stages, but that racism, beginning with First Nations people in this country, permeates to the core of what we do. Therefore, when you ask about the definition or how environmental racism begins, it begins from the minute that colonizers set foot in this country, and also what we, as settlers, and also people who came as slaves, faced when we got here.

We haven't wanted to talk about it and we haven't wanted to face it, but it's for real.

At some point, I hope somebody asks me a little about this data collection from a community perspective, because I have an opinion on that.

Thank you.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Dr. Jones, I'd love to ask you about data collection, so go ahead and tell us about that.

[Dr. Lynn Jones]

With the whole thing around the COVID, I've never heard so much about data collection since we've been dealing with this pandemic. It's so real, and the effect on.... I'm, of course, most familiar with the African-Canadian community. In my community too, we were black and indigenous who lived in my community. On the need for desegrated data, we're hearing also about health data, and you can't talk about the environment unless you talk about health.

In this bill, we will have an opportunity...as other areas, for example, in the health field, in the policing system, all now recognize that the pandemic has had a terrible effect on our communities, and we don't have the data to go along with it.

This bill will allow us also to collect this kind of desegrated data to help us do better. It's not just for the sake of doing it, but because we want a better environment and better health in these communities. We want to address these issues.

I'm no expert in a mathematical or engineering field, but I certainly can speak to community and community needs.

Thank you.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Baker.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

We have 20 seconds left, Dr. Jones.

Is there anything else you wish I'd asked you about?