Evidence of meeting #27 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you very much.
Mr. Trudel, you have the floor for two minutes.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Raymond, you talked about geothermal energy, and that's a very interesting topic.
Could you give me an idea of the potential that geothermal energy, which is in fact energy from the earth, represents?
I'd like you to tell me about Sweden and, more specifically, about the experience of Kuujjuaq.
2:55 p.m.
Professor, Institut national de la recherche scientifique, As an Individual
There are various issues there. As regards potential, I think that we haven't achieved its full potential and that there's ample room to develop geothermal systems in Quebec, Canada and elsewhere.
Take Sweden, for example, which decided to invest in geothermal several decades ago. The country doesn't have a lot of choice in renewable energies and decided to invest in geothermal heat pumps. Now the residential market in Sweden is saturated, and virtually all houses that can be heated by geothermal energy are. It's mainly the commercial market that offers growth opportunities, particularly new construction.
Here geothermal heat pumps represent 1% or 2% of the heating market. So there's still major growth potential for that type of heating, which would help us replace the petroleum products, fuel oil and natural gas, that are still used to heat buildings.
The north is a special case. What's important in the north is to provide local resources. Northern communities need that independence if the want to achieve a certain degree of development. Geothermal energy is one option for providing those local resources. The example I often cite is the construction of high-voltage lines. The cost per kilometer of high-voltage line is approximately $1 million, and the cost to drill is similar per kilometer of depth.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That's very interesting, and the comparison's quite clear.
Ms. Collins, you also have two minutes.
2:55 p.m.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have two questions. The first is about the Inflation Reduction Act that was recently passed in the United States. It's the largest investment ever in the fight against the climate crisis. Part of this is investments in tax credits for electric vehicles in North America.
Mr. Breton, have you looked at how those measures could affect the electric mobility industry here in Canada?
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Obviously, it's going to have an impact, but for some reason, the U.S. administration decided that for vehicles to be eligible, a certain percentage of the cars have to be built in North America now. What that means is that many vehicles are not eligible right now, which is not the case in Canada, unless they go over a certain threshold.
Yes, it has an impact, but let's face it: Some people say that we should....
By the way, I wanted to answer one comment, which is that—
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
—we need four million public chargers between now and 2050—
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Okay. I'll make it very quick. We don't need four million public chargers. That data is wrong. There was public research published by NRCan a few days ago. It's much less than that.
Regarding the Inflation Reduction Act, what I wanted to say is that when you look at rebates for electric cars.... I'll give you an example. Where you live in B.C., the rebate is $4,000. You were at 15.5% EV sales in the first quarter of 2022. In P.E.I. and New Brunswick, there was a $5,000 rebate, but the sales were at less than 5%. What was the difference? It was the ZEV mandate: Because there was a ZEV mandate in B.C. and there was no ZEV mandate in Atlantic Canada, they could not get their hands on electric cars there.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
2:55 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
What happened is that people from Atlantic Canada had to go to Ontario, Quebec or B.C. to get their hands on one, and therefore they could not be eligible for the rebate from their province.
2:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
Mr. Mazier is next, or was it somebody else?
I have you on the list. You have about three minutes and 30 seconds.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Ms. Stilborn, I spoke to Alberta Innovates a while back. They expressed concern over investment and intellectual property leaving Canada if we don't capitalize on clean technology. Can you tell the committee what will happen to the intellectual property if we don't commercialize technologies that we are developing in Canada?
2:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, Canadian Fuels Association
Dave, I'll let you answer that.
2:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Western Canada, Innovation and Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Fuels Association
It's very critical that we make sure we move from the good R and D we're doing—particularly in Alberta, where there's a lot of energy innovation going on—and make sure that we're commercializing it here, so that we're able to take advantage of the economic benefits and the decarbonization potential we have from all of the resources and expertise that we have in the Canadian context.
I think that means ensuring that we have very clear support, as well as investment parity and regulatory certainty to allow these projects to move forward to the commercialization space in this country rather than being exported to other jurisdictions.
3 p.m.
Conservative
3 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Breton, you seemed to indicate that you disagree with the number of charging stations that are required. The Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association is very clear on this. They set out what the charging gap is across the country. They say that chargers needed to support a fleet at 50% ZEVs in the province of Ontario alone is 608,000, and they say the gap is 602,000. Across the country, they say the gap is actually 1,660,338. I would think they know what they're talking about.
Do you disagree with this?
3 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
They don't know what they're talking about.
I'm sorry to say this, but there were two studies published, one by ICCT and another one by NRCan, that stated that between now and 2025 we need about 52,000 public chargers and about 200,000—
3 p.m.
Conservative
3 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
It's across the country:
Keep in mind that 80% to 90% of charging happens at home. That's why we don't need that many public chargers. I drive an electric car on a daily basis. I've been driving it for more than 20 years.
By 2030, according to the report released by NRCan, we're talking about 200,000 public chargers by 2030, 440,000 by 2035, 640,000 by 2040, 736,000 by 2045, and by 2050, about 727,000.
Keep in mind that the technology evolves really quickly. What happens is that we'll need fewer chargers, but more powerful ones, and the chemistry of batteries is going to change and make them more efficient. At one point, it's going to get more like having gas stations. That's why the whole picture is going to change, and to say that we need four million public chargers between now and 2050 just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry.
We look at all the data from the scientists. I really don't know where they're getting that number from.
3 p.m.
Liberal
3 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
If I were going to choose who I'm going to trust with what's needed, I would trust the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association over a study from NRCan.
3 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Electric Mobility Canada
Or from people from Electric Mobility Canada, who have...? I have more than 20 years' experience in this.