Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

I think it's a fair statement. The issue centres on what kind of information is being requested. When that information falls under the scope of what the CBC calls and what we describe as “journalistic information”, looking for access to information of a journalistic nature, which, in its essence, is competitive, then the CBC has an issue.

The CBC is in a competitive world. It's been put there by successive governments and CRTC rulings. For the last 20 years, it has increasingly had to generate its own revenue. All this puts the CBC in a precarious situation. As a public broadcaster and as an entity, the CBC needs to put circles around the information that competitors may ask of it. It's a crown corporation, it's arm's length, and it's also operating in a competitive world. It's a bit of a mishmash. It's not there of its own choosing. It's there because of the rulings and decisions that have been made by past governments. It's there because of downsizing in budgets. Mr. Morrison was talking about funding issues. It ties into that also. In the last 11 to 15 years, government budgets have increased by 80%, departmental budgets have increased by 83%, but the CBC's allocation has increased by only 8%.

We're not in the same boat. We operate in an industry that is very competitive. When a competitor comes after you looking for information about all sorts of stuff, and drowns you in over 1,000 requests, it's trying to get at stuff that, as a competitor, it shouldn't have access to.

Maybe Karen has something she would like to add.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Sure, I'll give her an opportunity.

As somebody who's been watching what has unfolded over the last couple of years, especially since the application and the launch of Sun News, it seemed to me that there was a pretty serious effort to define who they were and what they stood for before they actually broadcast anything. One could argue that they also worked to define those on the other side. I think there's a war. I'm not convinced it's a dirty war. It's an ideological fight that's going on in the media and among broadcasters. I think that's fair to say.

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

Do you know what? You're right. And we don't have a problem with that. We need a diversity of voices. We've always been for a diversity of voices in the broadcast industry and the news industry. That's not the problem. The issue today, in front of this committee, is the fact that CBC is being challenged on this, and it's based on a push by a competitor. It's puzzling to us, quite frankly.

I think Karen has something she'd like to add.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Perhaps I could come back to you, Karen. I have one last question for Ian, and I don't want to be cut off. I promise I'll give you any time I have left.

Mr. Morrison, you indicated that this CBC president has continued a transparency avoidance that you've seen in the past. You submitted some access to information requests and got some redacted responses. You think there are better examples--the way the BBC is operating, for instance--than what we've seen.

You also talked about how the CEO isn't accountable to anyone. The board doesn't have the power to hire and fire the CEO.

I just have one more question. The CBC ombudsman reports back to the president of the CBC. Doesn't that kind of mean it's a loop back to the exact same position? Like, if you want to find some kind of....

If you're trying to follow this through, it just seems like it's an end loop back around to the exact same point--that is, you're going to be frustrated on your access to information requests and that's just the way it is.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You can give a brief response, Mr. Morrison.

[Ian Morrison]

President Lacroix recently dismissed, or constructively dismissed, SRC's ombudsman. President Lacroix has a lot of power, and without the accountability.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Mr. Morrison.

Ms. Wirsig, we'll have to see if your response can fit into another member's question.

Mr. Andrews, seven minutes.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Finally, this morning, Mr. Del Mastro has admitted that this is an ideological war between the CBC and Quebecor. It's interesting, because that's exactly what's going on in here today, in this committee study--an ideological war between the Conservative Party and their beef against the CBC.

My first question will go to you, Mr. Morrison, because you suggested in your statement, about Mr. Moore's comments regarding funding of the CBC, that they've changed tune, that they now have a majority government and they seem to do what they wish.

Where do you see this going, with this ideological war that's going on with the Conservative Party and the CBC?

[Ian Morrison]

I see it as more complicated than that. When the political party that you are part of was in government, there was, within that party, pro- and anti-public broadcasting debate and discussion behind closed doors.

The issue of public broadcasting is a difficult issue for the Conservative Party. They know from research, as we do, that the strong majority of people who support them also support public broadcasting. It's an issue that divides their core base of support--divides the 10% from the other 30% that means they're in government. So you tend to get things from the Conservative government--and I think to a degree it's what you got from the Liberal government before it--that come from both sides of its mouth. It's a Hydra-headed kind of creature.

We log comments that Conservative candidates make to our supporters across the country. I have a huge file containing all kinds of comments. I could show you thousands of comments that are very laudatory towards public broadcasting. And then you get some comments.... Mr. Del Mastro and I had a little kerfuffle some months ago about the comment that Mr. Angus mentioned.

So you get all kinds of comments coming out of this government. They have a majority and they want to examine the access to information policies of the CBC. We're not opposed to that. We don't really take Quebecor all that seriously, ourselves.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Let me just give one comment as well.

I think improvement can be made. There's no doubt that there are some issues here with CBC and section 68.1. Improvements can be made.

I want to talk to the folks from the Media Guild about how our study is too narrow, but I have one more question for Mr. Morrison.

You obviously, being with Friends of CBC, are quite familiar with the CBC website, and I assume with everything on the website. They do have a pretty good proactive disclosure, where any request that has come before them they have posted on the website. They are one of two government agencies that do so.

Have you had an opportunity to look through some of those disclosures? You mentioned earlier that a lot of that stuff is redacted--and some of the stuff that's disclosed on the website.

Can you just give us your analysis of that?

[Ian Morrison]

First, there's no such organization as “Friends of CBC”. That would be a good cause. Somebody should take it up. Our group is called Friends of Canadian Broadcasting.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

I'm sorry.

[Ian Morrison]

Just for the record, because you said that, we are a watchdog for Canadian programming on radio, TV, and new media. So we watch the CBC and CTV. Sometimes, even if I don't want to, I have to admit I watch Sun TV news. Our job is like the radar dish in an airport. We're watching a whole audiovisual horizon. We could get stuck in the CBC's website on access to information for far too long. But as I said in my presentation, our impression is that they hide behind section 68.1 for issues that have nothing to do with it.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Have you seen that through their proactive disclosure on some of the ones they've disclosed on their website?

[Ian Morrison]

Let me just talk about the one I know best. My colleagues and I are not saying the same things, but we have great respect for each other.

The name Magid Associates is not new to you.

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

Magid.

[Ian Morrison]

We just wanted to know how much money--we think it was $10 million--had actually gone to New York. That's all. They said no, for journalistic reasons. We've heard too many anecdotes to not recognize that there's a problem. The problem comes from the president and the board of directors, not the 5,000 or so members of the Canadian Media Guild who work hard and do their jobs. That's the CBC that we like to support.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

To our friends with the Media Guild, you talked about how the scope of our study is too narrow, and that we probably need to do this across many government departments. I agree with you.

Could you just explain where some of the problems are? If we're going to try to make this better for everybody after this study is over, how do we do that?

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

Do you want to take that, Karen?

[Karen Wirsig]

Sure. Having talked to a few of our members who do a lot of access to information, they mentioned a few things. Some of the questions were in our brief.

There are no penalties for non-compliance with the act. So perhaps there could be actual penalties for non-compliance. There are many exemptions and exclusions in the act, and I think you've even heard here that they're not particularly well worded, especially in the case of section 68.1. I think that is part of the reason why the CBC is in court with the Information Commissioner. So perhaps the wording of the legislation could be examined.

The Information Commissioner has said she would like to have access to the ministerial documents and records. There are ways to improve access to information in this country. We're not experts; we're sort of second-hand experts through our members. It's not the main job of our union. But these are some of the things we've heard. I think having a very serious hearing on how to improve the legislation and look at what other countries have been doing to improve access to information would be a good thing.

I talked to a recently retired member the other day, who said he often goes through U.S. access to information to get information about the Canadian government that he can't get in Canada. There is a culture in the U.S., tied right to the Constitution, about accessibility of information being part of the lifeblood of democracy. That culture doesn't exist to the same extent in Canada, and I think that is a problem. It's not something you can change at this committee. It's not something you can change with a study.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Please conclude.

[Karen Wirsig]

There are things you can do to start to change that culture.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Ms. Wirsig and Mr. Andrews.

We'll now go to Mr. Carmichael for seven minutes.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

And good morning to our witnesses.

As I've listened to the weeks of testimony from the various witnesses, it strikes me that on the face of the access requests, the true picture of this really revolves around transparency on financial disclosure. We had one witness, for example, who said there are multiple fiefdoms and empires within CBC and that no good manager at the top of the ladder would be able to really get control or an understanding of what goes on within those areas and manage their dollars.

So when I look at the $1.16 billion and the increases in funding that have come forward in the last five years annually, to Mr. Morrison's comments earlier about five-year stable funding, it strikes me that this government has been very solid in providing stable, consistent financing: however it's come, it's been there.

So for our taxpayers, as we're elected officials, I feel my job is to ensure that the people I'm working with and have access to should be prepared to disclose the transparency on the financial management and accountability of what they are doing. So this issue, to me, would be settled very quickly if we could get to that point and specifically if we refer to section 68.1.

Section 68.1 talks about journalistic programming and creative activities. Mr. Morrison, you mentioned you don't take Quebecor and, I presume, Mr. Péladeau seriously, but he was here the other day and he said he fully endorses the support of those particular values.

This is about other issues, and, specifically, my question to each of you would be about internal documents on travel, meals, and hospitality. How do those affect those three core values, and if those were released—as Mr. Péladeau said, that's all he's requested—would this issue not be resolved and begin to unload the hidden content that we're all so concerned about?

Mr. Morrison.