Information & Ethics Committee on May 1st, 2012

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

What percentage of your budget is spent on legal reviews of your cases?

[Karen Shepherd]

At the beginning of the year I put $100,000 aside in case there was a court challenge. I'm not sure how sufficient that is, depending on some court challenges. Last year we didn't have a court challenge. I think the last one was in March 2009 when we got the final results.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Do you have in-house legal staff or do you contract that out?

[Karen Shepherd]

I have one legal counsel.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

On the question of liability, the stakes would be extremely high in terms of the allegations that you make and the impact on someone's career. You have to feel you can go forward, but it would seem to me someone who wanted to fire a shot across the bow of your work could bring forward a multi-million dollar liability case. I'm just wondering if $100,000 is enough in the kitty.

[Karen Shepherd]

Well, as I said, my budget is pretty lean. I don't really have much more than that to put aside. One of the things is that if it became a lot in terms of court cases, I would want to do as I think one of my fellow colleagues did, which is to have access to money should I need it, because I can't rely on Justice Canada.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

As it stands now, can you be sued personally for the work that you do on behalf of the Canadian people?

[Karen Shepherd]

I think I would be the same as any other public servant in terms of being sued, if I'm doing it in due process of my job, but that's something I could check and get back to you with a direct answer.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think it's important for us to know because, again, the kind of finding you would make against someone would have profound implications. You need to feel that you can do your work on behalf…. You've been authorized to undertake these investigations, you should be authorized to follow through on them.

I'm concerned there might be an attempt to intimidate, whether or not you personally can be challenged, because you'd have to think about that. If you do not have liability protection and you have a limited budget, where would the money come from for a legal defence if someone decides to sue for a multi-million dollar amount?

[Karen Shepherd]

I haven't made decisions based on that. I appreciate what you're saying, but when I'm making decisions on a file, I'm being given very well-documented files, and sometimes files take the time they do in order to ensure that natural justice and procedural fairness are followed. I'm quite confident when I'm making the decisions and then tabling the reports to Parliament that I have a good case, and I'm quite confident in the decisions that I'm making.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We have confidence in you. This is why you're authorized to do this work. If you were going to follow through, it's because you have done the work that Parliament has given you the mandate to do. It just seems odd that you would not be protected fully for liability, because people will bring legal actions on all manner of crazy things in order to deflect or to try to derail an investigation. It seems vital that you are protected entirely and that your staff are protected so that they can carry through with the work. We trust that you will do the due diligence.

[Karen Shepherd]

I agree.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that.

I understand there were about 125 reviews yielding about a 28% alarm rate. Out of your original administrative review, how many cases go forward?

[Karen Shepherd]

I'd have to get back to you. I have closed 78 administrative reviews, and since becoming commissioner, I have opened 14 investigations.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Fourteen investigations, and you moved 11 to the RCMP. Does that include the 11?

[Karen Shepherd]

That's going back to the beginning of the organization. Since becoming commissioner, I have referred seven files to the RCMP.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Seven files.

[Karen Shepherd]

I have personally referred seven files.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, but overall, since the commissioner of lobbying has been brought forward, I understand that 11 cases went to the RCMP, with zero follow-up.

[Karen Shepherd]

If you include those from my predecessor, it might have gone up now with the numbers I've done, but I personally, since 2008, have sent seven files.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Seven were sent and had zero pick-up from the RCMP?

[Karen Shepherd]

One of them is still currently with the RCMP.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, but they haven't....

In terms of your resources, we feel it's important and timely and also fair that if someone is being investigated, that we can get to the bottom of this, we can close that file in a timely manner, that we send it to the RCMP and it seems to go to a dead letter office, that you have the authority and the ability to follow through. You can take the administrative monetary penalties and you can issue a report to Parliament in a timely manner either that they're guilty or they're innocent.

Do you believe that you should be able to follow through on the cases you begin?

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

I am sorry, Mr. Angus, but your time is up.

I will let Ms. Shepherd answer in a few seconds.

[Karen Shepherd]

Merci. Concerning administrative monetary penalties, as I asked you in my recommendations, aside from reports to Parliament, I would like the ability to publicize the names on my website. Not all of them require a report to Parliament.