Evidence of meeting #105 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Nathaniel Erskine-Smith
Thank you.
Our next five minutes goes to Monsieur Picard.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Ms. Bélanger and Mr. Bertrand, I think this is the first time we've spoken.
What changes have you seen in lobbying over the past four months? The practice has changed. The methods people are using may have changed, thanks to technology and the resources available, so you may have had to revisit your budget because it doesn't give you enough latitude.
What are those changes? Is there a correlation between the changes you have seen and the additional resources you are asking for?
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The funding we are seeking is simply to keep the registry modern and effective. You know how technology works. The registry is 10 years old. It constantly has to be updated. If legislative changes are made, certain aspects of the registry will change, and that, too, will require resources.
We received 23,000 monthly communication reports last year. I genuinely believe people are trying to meet their obligations. You asked whether lobbying had changed. Clearly, more and more attention is being paid to transparency and ethics. No one wants to contravene the act. The more meetings with public office-holders that take place and the more willing public office-holders are to have those meetings, the more monthly reports will be filed. The number of reports is increasing, so we need tools that are responsive, particularly when people want to register via their cell phone or iPad, which is something they can't do right now. If we want to modernize, these changes are necessary.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Do the contentious cases you've examined have common themes, or are you seeing new practices, for instance, in terms of professional recruitment? Have the issues changed over the years?
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think we're going to see more and more court challenges. Up to last year, the office had never had a court challenge. One was made, and it was resolved. Now two others are in progress.
Judicial review essentially serves as an oversight mechanism for our work. In both challenges, my appointment and impartiality are being questioned and a reasonable decision is being sought. In one case, I decided to drop the Apotex investigation following the death of Mr. Sherman. In the other, I decided not to pursue the Aga Khan investigation because he was not a lobbyist.
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
On a different note, you made a comment about the return to work after politics.
I don't quite understand something. Regardless of whether an MP is a public office-holder, they will have formed ties and acquired knowledge and experience after one, two, or three terms in Parliament. When they leave political life and go back to work, they don't undergo a lobotomy to forget that knowledge so that it can't be used for personal gain. In the professional world, employers actually seek out people with experience. It's called hiring experienced people.
How do you draw the line between professional experience and personal gain?
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
When a public office-holder leaves office, they are subject to certain rules administered by Commissioner Dion. I would say the only thing they are prohibited from doing is lobbying, given that a lobbyist is in contact with public office-holders.
Of course, an MP will have built relationships with their fellow members and acquired an understanding of internal workings. The purpose of the rule is to prevent the hiring organization from deriving an unfair advantage because the individual held public office. That would disadvantage other people who could also be doing the work. You can work for organizations, but you cannot become a lobbyist.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I have two quick questions, Commissioner.
To that final point, do you get a list of public office holders who have approached the due date when their commitment to not act as a lobbyist expires?
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I do not get a list. We read The Hill Times and we make sure that, when people announce they're retiring or that they will leave.... We do not get a list, so it is somewhat difficult to ensure that people who leave are aware of their responsibilities.
I was in the other office when this practice started, but when someone leaves, the letter they obtain from Commissioner Dion will remind them of their obligation not to lobby under the Lobbying Act and to communicate with our office, but I do not get a list.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
In your first annual report as commissioner, will you report the number of exemptions you have?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. There were 17 last year: 10 were granted and seven denied.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Finally, to the caseload of 55, will you report on how many have been resolved; how many are yet to be resolved?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes. Absolutely. There are currently 50 files open on that complaints file.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you.
I want to follow up on Mr. Sheehan's line of questioning. I think it is important for us to start to clarify because, again, the act was brought in 10 years ago to try to cover off all manner of things.
We have a case like Bruce Carson, who was in the Prime Minister's Office, steps out, comes back, and starts selling a product and is evading the Lobbying Act. That's a fairly clear-cut case of someone using their power to open doors and avoid the responsibilities of the Lobbying Act.
The case of a backbench MP who wants to work for the Cancer Society would strike me as a very different thing. I've met other former MPs who have wanted to do international work and have been told they can't.
Would we define it by the nature of work, or would you feel it would be better if you as commissioner simply had the discretion to look at them and decide whether or not this was a reasonable use of someone's skill to better society as opposed to pecuniary interest? Is that how we should be looking at changes?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I think a criterion of public interest might be an interesting way of looking at it because if someone wants to work with an international organization, I don't know if it would be because of this prohibition as a lobbyist. It might be because of certain rules under Commissioner Dion's mandate for former designated public office holders because you cannot go to work with someone with whom you have had significant official dealings.
I can't speak to the particular facts of the case, but certainly there should possibly be a public interest aspect to look at as a criterion, but it's a policy decision that will only apply to decision-makers.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
In the public interest it would also be lobbying and under the ethics? Some people have developed a certain expertise, say, internationally because there's no way you're selling products here to a government agency. You have built a reputation. You have done good things. People know you for that. To me that is public interest.
Would we have to look at that under the ethics code as well?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Under the Lobbying Act as members of Parliament you're designated public office holders. Under the Conflict of Interest Act you're not. Some of you might be, but you have to be a minister or parliamentary secretary. There are obligations in that act that are forever and ever. There is no five-year.... You cannot take advantage of the position or use information you have obtained during your position. There is a one- or a two-year post-employment period in that act.
As members of Parliament—and you will know this better than me—I don't believe there are post-employment obligations under the MP code of conduct. Under the Lobbying Act, it's a prohibition of five years for you to not become a lobbyist.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Finally, you had mentioned about financial constraints and updating the registry. Do you have a number you think would help us get where you need to be?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I have numbers.
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I like that question.
The request that went before Treasury Board in the fall was a one-time $3 million over three years so it was a little more at the beginning and then spread out over the three years. Then after that, it would be $700,000 a year.