Evidence of meeting #17 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clyde Wells  Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee
Jennifer Stoddart  Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee
Doug Letto  Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Good morning colleagues.

We thank you very much for coming today. We have some distinguished folks here at our last meeting as we transition from the Access to Information Act to our study on the privacy legislation. There isn't a better segue to the legislative changes that we've heard so much about in Newfoundland and Labrador than to have the three members of the Independent Statutory Review Committee from that province.

We're pleased to have with us Clyde Wells, Jennifer Stoddart, and Doug Letto—a former Premier of Newfoundland, a former Information Commissioner for Canada, and a man with a distinguished career in the media dealing with these issues. The committee is absolutely thrilled.

Typically, we start with an opening comment. I'm not sure if there will be just one of you or if each of you will have an opening comment. Has that been decided yet?

8:55 a.m.

Clyde Wells Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

I will explain our position at the outset.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

That is quite all right.

Colleagues, this will be our last meeting on access to information. We should soon have a full translated version of our report on access to information. We'll move to the consideration of that draft report on Thursday. This is our last chance to ask probing questions on this issue, and we can still add information to the report on Thursday.

Without further ado, are you ready?

Very good. Mr. Wells, please begin.

8:55 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, thank you very much.

I want at the outset to emphasize, for the record and for the media and members of the public present, that we're here at the invitation of this committee. We're not here seeking to make a presentation on behalf of anybody, and in particular I want to emphasize for you that we are not speaking on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador or any agency of that government.

We're here because in an earlier life, a year or so ago, we were the members of a committee that was then functioning. That committee has now finished. We have no jurisdiction left to do anything or to express any views on behalf of any committees. I want the record to be very clear that we're here as individuals who happen to have been involved in that endeavour. You have asked us to come and speak with you about our experience in that, and we're happy to do that, but we're not representing anybody other than ourselves.

It may be helpful for me to outline how we approached the work that we were given. The preparation of the report and the drafting of the legislation were driven by the findings of the committee that were derived from four major factors.

The first was the circumstances that gave rise to the appointment of the committee some two years ahead of its statutorily scheduled time. I won't say anything about that unless you ask, and then we'll provide you with whatever information we have available. Otherwise, we'll say nothing about it.

Second, there's the premier's publicly stated description when he announced the appointment of the committee. He asked the committee to provide recommendations for “a strong statutory framework for access to information and protection of privacy, which when measured against international standards, will rank among the best.” We more or less took that to heart and set that as an umbrella objective of what we were doing. We used that constantly as a guide when we were developing it. We will elaborate on that and any questions you may have.

The third is the specific directions that were in the terms of reference. There was nothing terribly remarkable about them. They were essentially what one might expect in terms of reference for a committee being asked to do this kind of work.

The fourth was the committee's assessment of the practices and procedures of the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner as it had been working and as it was then working in the discharge of that office's oversight duties and how, even though well intentioned, those practices and procedures resulted in diminishing public access instead of enhancing it. We had to look very carefully at the way that functioned.

We concluded at the outset that we could not pursue and achieve the objectives that we were being asked to achieve without first assessing the stature of the right of access. What was it? What were its underlying principles? Why was it there? From that we would develop a guide as to what its character should be, what the rights were and their extent, and the limitations on them.

The extremes we heard from people were quite wide, indeed. They ranged from the view of the Centre for Law and Democracy, which categorized it as a human right and all of its characteristics and rights, with virtually no limitation to be determined because of the fact it was described as a human right. They ranged from that position to the view expressed by a professor from the university that the government “does not exist to finance the provision of information to its critics” and secondly, that “if requests are too frequent then the government will be required to divert excessive public funds to subsidize an insatiable appetite for information searches.“

Well, we didn't accept either of those extremes. Instead, we looked at how access to information rights had been treated and assessed in Canada. We did go to the Supreme Court side. We considered the decisions of the Supreme Court, and how they viewed it.

It was not described by them as either a human right or a constitutional right, but a quasi-constitutional right. They described its purpose as being to facilitate democracy, to enable people to participate meaningfully in the democratic process and, finally, to enable the citizenry to hold politicians and public servants to account. Those are the purposes of access to information.

From that, we decided early on that if we were to be successful in the objective, it would be best for us to include in our report an actual piece of legislation that we would recommend. Instead of describing what we thought it should be, we thought the best approach would be to actually draft the legislation that we would recommend. Then there could be no doubt, no misinterpreting, no misunderstanding, or no difficulty in interpreting what the committee was recommending, as the committee was expressing it in the legislation. We engaged the services of a person experienced in legislative drafting, and she did a great job for us. That was the approach we took to it.

The next slide shows the areas we looked at in particular, described in general terms. We will be happy to discuss any of them in detail, but rather than talk about things you're not interested in hearing about, we'd sooner give you the general framework, and you can ask whatever questions you want.

It first became necessary for us to repeal the sections of what was described as “Bill 29”. This was the legislation the government brought in a couple of years before that and created such a furor in the province and needed to be repealed, because it was the antithesis of what good access to information legislation should be. We had to deal with those issues.

Seen in the next slide is the next matter we dealt with, which was about the administrative matters, including the role of the coordinators in the different departments and agencies of government, and the question of fees, what they should be, whether they should be, and what limitations there should be on them. In particular, in dealing with the duty to assist, it was about emphasizing or trying to provide a basis for building within the public service a culture of obligation, an obligation to provide information to the public that didn't seem to exist earlier, and to also provide for limiting the power to disregard requests. There was a statutory power, as there is in the federal legislation, to disregard requests.

The next area we looked at was the office of the commissioner. We were not happy with the results of the existing ombudsman model. The commissioner's office was resisting an order-making model and emphasizing for us the flaws and defects in an order-making model. They made a good deal of sense, so we developed a hybrid, a combination of the two. It starts out, of course, being an ombudsman model, but the treatment of the recommendation of the commissioner after the recommendation is made and the procedures that have to be followed gives it the effect of being an order-making model. As far as the public, the requesters, are concerned, the burden shifts to the government department to establish that the information requested ought not to be released, instead of the other way around.

We discussed in detail the total role of the commissioner, not just the general administration of the office and the time limits for responses. We were very concerned about the time that had been consumed in getting access. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of the complaints that we heard were about the time it took. They were focused on the departments and agencies of government as being the cause of this and had totally overlooked the impact of the role of the commissioner's office in these delays. We had to do a detailed examination of that.

The other general area that we looked at was modernizing the existing system, particularly in light of the instruction from the government to provide recommendations for legislation that, when examined or compared with other legislation in the world, would rank among the best. We had to do some modernizing of the existing system, and we did. We expanded the public interest overrider provided specifically for public interest override. That seems now to have been well received. We made recommendations for the provision of data sets and recommendations for implementation of a duty to document—not in the access to information statute, but in the statute regulating maintenance of information and documentation in government services generally, which is where we thought they should be. We gave the general recommendation in our report.

We also dealt with the development of publication schemes and acting proactively in getting information out without waiting for it to be requested, recognizing the importance to the general public of having this information. If they are to participate meaningfully in the democratic process, the general public needs the information. We felt there was an obligation on government and all of its agencies to be engaged in active publication of the information without waiting for requests.

We also felt there should be better development of privacy information assessments for new governmental programs and legislation and that before any of it was proceeded with, there should be an assessment of the impact on privacy rights, so we provided for PIAs as well.

Finally, we addressed requests for exemptions and kept those exemptions at a minimum. We rejected most of the ones that had been requested specifically to us and eliminated a good deal of the other exemptions that were in the old legislation. That enabled us to produce the legislation that government readily adopted without changing one single item in the legislation.

We were happy with that result, needless to say, and we're happy that generally speaking, we've heard good comment and widespread acceptance of the approach from stakeholders all across the country.

That's where we're going to stop, Mr. Chair, and leave it to you.

Did you want to add anything, Jennifer? I'm sorry.

9:10 a.m.

Jennifer Stoddart Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

That's quite all right. Thank you.

9:10 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

May 31st, 2016 / 9:10 a.m.

Doug Letto Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

I'm good. We'll react to whatever questions come our way.

9:10 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

Ladies and gentlemen, it's in your hands to decide what you want to hear from us.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Absolutely. Thank you very much, Mr. Wells.

We'll now move to our round of seven-minute questions. We'll start with Mr. Erskine-Smith from the Liberal Party.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today. Commissioner Legault has proposed repealing all exclusions and moving to exemptions throughout the act. I wonder to what extent you address this in your proposals and what your thoughts are on moving to a complete exemption-based system.

9:10 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

We didn't remove all exemptions. There are certain things that so clearly and manifestly should not be subject to disclosure that they speak for themselves; you don't have to make the case.

The most obvious one that I can think of is the preliminary police investigation of alleged crimes—for example, police reports that they file saying that they think Clyde Wells is guilty of a particularly offensive crime or robbery or fraud or whatever else. This is in the nature of police work. If they don't do that and are not free to express those opinions and explore them, they can't possibly do their investigative work properly and fully. To require those to be released would totally offend privacy so greatly—

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

If I could jump in, it's not a matter of requiring their disclosure. My understanding of the exemption-based system is that it simply allows the commissioner to review, whereas an exclusion would preclude the commissioner from even reviewing that information.

The reason I ask what your thoughts are in moving to an exemption-based system is that if cabinet confidence, for example, right now is an exclusion, the commissioner can't even review whether that refusal to disclose is acceptable or not. Should the commissioner have that power to review?

9:10 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

Exemption from commissioner's review is different.

We eliminated that because we felt the commissioner was a trusted servant of the public. Lawyers in the Department of Justice are entrusted with solicitor-client information. Why wouldn't the lawyers in the commissioner's office be entrusted with it? They can only properly discharge their duty to determine whether or not something is genuinely a solicitor-client privilege if they can look at it and assess it. If they can't see it, they can't possibly do it.

The need for total elimination of the exemptions and allowing the commissioner's office to examine it was demonstrated clearly by information provided to us by that office. When a court decided that you couldn't get access to solicitor-client information and that the commissioner couldn't assess it, all of a sudden there was an overwhelming increase in claims of solicitor-client privilege. The court of appeal set that decision aside and said that the commissioner could look at it. When the commissioner did get a look at it, 80% of them had nothing whatsoever to do with solicitor-client privilege. They weren't even remotely connected to it. When one public servant heard the courts say they didn't have to disclose solicitor-client privilege, that public servant was quoted as saying that they just claimed solicitor-client privilege to avoid disclosure.

Clearly, the system can only work fairly and in the public interest if the commissioner can look at all of it.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I'm with you, and I agree with respect to the commissioner's powers to.... To put it another way, there's a difference between an injury-based model whereby the commissioner can review information and assess whether it's in the public interest to disclose the information overall, based on an assessment of the balance of interest. On the other hand, there could be mandatory exemptions whereby the commissioner, even upon review, might say that this does fall within cabinet confidence and, therefore, despite the injury test, it falls within these parameters and it's going to be excluded. To what extent did you look at the injury-based model versus mandatory exemptions? Yes, review, but if they fall within those four corners, exclude it.

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

Injury is obviously a consideration that must be taken into account. In the end we looked at applying the principle of a public interest override. We greatly expanded the public interest override. Even where there is an absolute right to entitlement—I've forgotten the phrase we used—if it could be clearly demonstrated that the public interest in disclosure outweighed the factors dictating non-disclosure, then it had to be disclosed in the public interest.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

That's with reference to all information. All information would be subject to that public interest override?

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

All information—

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Doug Letto

In about eight categories.

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

We added eight categories.

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Doug Letto

Albeit not with respect to cabinet. However, we added that if the clerk of the cabinet felt that it was in the public interest to release cabinet information, even though there was a prohibition against it, they should do it.

The public interest override in my view is a stream that runs through our legislation now. It was much more limited in the prior situation, and it even includes the area of fees that people can request, that even when fees can legitimately be charged, if it's in the public interest to release that information for free, officials should take that stance.

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Jennifer Stoddart

We also broadened it in terms of, as my colleagues said, the contents of what we mean by public interest. Previously, if I remember correctly, it was usually health, safety, harm to some individual, and environmental issues. We broadened it to include democratic factors. There were four of them, for the understanding of rights and liberties, justice, and so on of the public good, to encourage transparency as to the acts of public servants, to enhance the democratic process.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

My last question is with respect to extending the coverage of the act.

The commissioner has proposed extending coverage to ministers' offices and to the Prime Minister's Office, but also beyond that to private bodies that receive a loan or a grant in the amount of $5 million, or bodies that act in the public interest, meaning if they act on behalf of the federal government with respect to certain policies or if they engage in regulation-making. I wonder what your views are on that, and whether you engaged in that discussion in your committee.

9:15 a.m.

Member, Independent Statutory Review Committee

Clyde Wells

I don't recall that we had an extensive discussion on that issue specifically, but the standard that had been applied, which we didn't alter, was that any organization was subject to act if the majority of its board of directors was appointed by the government. If it was a non-profit organization that received money, the government appointed the majority of the board of directors or controlled it; but if it was a private organization, that's a different thing.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

We will now move to Mr. Jeneroux for seven minutes, please.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Ms. Stoddart, I'm sure you're very familiar with committees, so it's good to have you back again.

I do want to get the perspective of all three of you, perhaps, on the model that Newfoundland and Labrador has, which is a hybrid model, as you know. The recommendation from the Information Commissioner was to move to an order-making model here at the federal level. Why wasn't the direction that was taken in your province, and do you perhaps have any thoughts on some of the flaws you may have come across in your study of that as a committee?