Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Shepherd  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

11:50 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Where I can, I've done that. I have spoken to some of the universities and so on to get that message out. But this goes back to the point I had as well; we've managed to do quite a lot with limited resources. Having more resources would allow more of that to occur. In the last eight years, no matter where I am, I find I'm continuously talking about the fact that lobbying is a legitimate activity. It just needs to be done transparently.

Yes, it's educating the public more, and we've been trying to do it from the academic point of view or sometimes in doing interviews, as well, which are read by the public. Could we do more maybe through the Twitter account? We're starting to put our videos on social media, and so on. We're trying to get it out a bit more. It's constantly, when you're running a lean and efficient office, where are the trade-offs?

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you, Mr. Saini.

Colleagues, we're approaching the one-hour time period. We're going to have a little time used up in the switch of witnesses. According to our list, I have more minutes on the list than I have left in the hour.

Mr. Kelly, I think is willing to forgo.

Mr. Long, I'm sure you have some questions that you'd like to ask.

Mr. Boulerice, do you have anything that you would like to add at this particular point in time? Mr. Blaikie?

If it's okay with colleagues, then, Mr. Long I'll give you five minutes, and that will wrap up this witness and we'll move on from there.

Mr. Long.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you so much for coming and thanks for your eight years of service to all of us.

Truthfully, I may not need five minutes.

I'm just going to read a quote that you said not too long ago. You said that Canadians must have “confidence in the integrity and impartiality of the decisions being taken, and confidence in their government.”

Can you tell me if you feel that's happening?

11:50 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

In my opinion, I would say it is. I think there's the fact that there have been demonstrated consequences to the act. I think we have a number of regimes. All of these are contributing to the confidence that Canadians can have in their governments.

When I look at things around the world, I think sometimes what's of interest is the fact that we can have these rules and so on in place and still have a democracy that's running well.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

A few more quotes I pulled out here from the code. “Lobbyists should respect democratic institutions. They should act in a manner that does not diminish public confidence and trust in government.”

What changes have you seen over the eight years from a culture standpoint? Have you seen a shift? Have you seen more openness and transparency?

11:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

From the lobbyist perspective?

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Yes.

11:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I would say yes. We have, at any one time, 5,000 lobbyists registered in the registry, and more than 8,000 in any given year because people are registering and deregistering as they need to.

The questions come into the office as to whether they can do certain activities before they embark on them. They're coming to us and asking, “Can we do these activities? Am I going to find myself in breach or not?” Those have increased and that to me is a sign that lobbyists are taking very seriously the role they play in our democratic process.

That rule or principle that was put into the new code was largely to assure Canadians and public office holders that these individuals were respecting democratic institutions because my experience was that lobbyists were doing so.

The code has two purposes. One is to provide lobbyists with guidance to ensure that they are behaving ethically, but it's also there to ensure that public office holders can know what behaviours to expect and Canadians can look at this and say these things are being done to the highest of standards. The lobbyists are respecting their democratic institutions and so on. They take this seriously. It's in their code.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Madam Commissioner, we thank you very much for coming and appearing.

11:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

I have one quick question for you, if I may.

You spoke a bit about the previous reviews of the Lobbying Act and so on. This committee has approved several reports over its time. I was a member of it in the previous Parliament, on and off.

Does everything hold true based on the recommendations that you had in the past, or potential changes? Did the reports that have been issued by the committee and your comments to them still hold true today? Can we assume that everything is as it was when the Lobbying Act was last looked at?

11:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

If I understand the question correctly, you're saying that if I appeared before the committee during the next legislative review, would I suggest the same things? The answer is yes. I might look to see, in the additional five years, what else could be suggested, but I would stand behind those nine recommendations, yes.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Excellent, thank you very much. We appreciate your attendance here today and the excellent way in which you've done an admirable job as commissioner. We wish you well with the continuation of your mandate. Congratulations.

11:55 a.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Colleagues, at this particular point in time...Mr. Kelly.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Mr. Chair, I understand there is a meeting request to have a television camera to be brought in for the next portion.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

I'm just getting to that.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I'm sorry, I didn't know—

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

That's okay. I appreciate that you are bringing it up.

I've reviewed this, folks. One of our media outlets has requested to meet personally just before the meeting commenced, and they would like to put up a camera to televise the meeting because this meeting was not able to be televised through the normal broadcast. I think the House of Commons only has the ability to use two or maybe three rooms where they are able to broadcast, and those rooms were all filled up with ministers appearing, so this meeting was not able to be broadcast.

The Standing Orders and the rules in O'Brien and Bosc do permit the recording. There are some rules about that. It has to be an accredited media outlet, and I have every reason to believe this is satisfactory. The camera must be situated in a stationary position, and it must be tied into the House of Commons system. It must be done while we're on a suspension, and it must stay in place until the committee either goes into suspension again or the committee is over.

Now that everybody knows the terms and conditions about how that happens, I seek the committee's guidance. Would you accept a member of the Parliamentary Press Gallery putting a camera up in the room while we're suspended?

Okay, as long as they understand and accept those terms, we'll do so.

We'll suspend for a few moments, and then we'll resume with the Ethics Commissioner.

Thank you, colleagues.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Welcome back, colleagues. I appreciate the brief interlude.

We're now resuming our 31st meeting, and pursuant to Standing Order 108 and a whole bunch of subsections, we now have a briefing session with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. We would like to welcome back to our committee the very well-known Ms. Dawson to discuss with us her plans on the recent extension of her appointment.

Ms. Dawson, please start us off with your opening comments, and then we'll move to questions. Welcome back to the committee.

11:55 a.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, and honourable members of the committee, I thank you for inviting me to appear before you today.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to share with you some observations from my experience in administering the Conflict of Interest Act and the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons over the past nine years.

I was appointed Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner effective July 9, 2007, the same day that the Conflict of Interest Act came into force. The members' code had been in effect since 2004.

The act and the members' code have similar rules, but also some key differences. Generally speaking, the members' code is less strict than the act, although more information is disclosed publicly under the members' code than under the act.

When I took office, I set out to apply and interpret both regimes fairly and consistently, with a focus on preventing contraventions. I also undertook to be as transparent as possible.

Given that the act was new, I had to put in place the structures and processes necessary to support its effective administration. Early in my term, I created a legal services unit and an investigations unit, and I developed investigation procedures. I also implemented various process improvements, such as a system of reminders to notify reporting public office holders and members of approaching compliance deadlines. The public registry is accessible online, and my office recently made it possible for reporting public office holders and members to submit their public declarations through a secure electronic portal.

I have built a strong internal management framework that helps to ensure the effective, efficient, and economical use of public resources. When my office was created in its current form, in July 2007, it was given a budget of $7.1 million. I have never had to seek a budget increase. Instead, I have been able to proactively offer several small reductions. My office has lapsed some funds, and that's because, given the nature of my work, I have always maintained a reserve in order to respond to exceptional circumstances, such as an increase in investigation requests or a particularly complex investigation that could significantly impact our workload.

My focus has always been on prevention through education, outreach, and the provision of advice to public office holders and members. My goal has been to ensure that public office holders and members have the information and the tools they need to comply with the act and the members' code. A top priority has been, and continues to be, to provide clear information to public office holders and members about their obligations under the act and the members' code. I have issued a number of documents for their guidance, and I made them available on my website. Topics addressed under the act include gifts, fundraising, outside activities, and post-employment.

My office has instituted regular direct communications with reporting public office holders and members, including an annual review of their confidential reports and measures to be taken under the act and the members' code. In 2010, my office started sending an annual letter to those public office holders who are not reporting public office holders, in order to keep in touch with them and to remind them of their obligations under the act. My office also provides confidential advice on an individual basis to public office holders and members. I note that the number of requests for advice has generally increased since I became commissioner to over 2,200 a year, and this is over and above the regular communications.

Although my focus is on prevention, I apply the enforcement provisions of the act and the members' code, as appropriate. Under the act, I can impose administrative monetary penalties up to $500, largely for failures to meet reporting deadlines. I can also issue compliance orders. It took a couple of years to develop internal systems to implement these provisions, but I have found them to be useful tools in ensuring compliance. I have issued quite a few monetary penalties and a number of compliance orders. I can also conduct investigations of possible contraventions of both regimes. Not all of my investigations lead to an examination or an inquiry that results in a report. I follow up on any information related to possible contraventions that come my way, and I often find that there are no grounds to move to a formal examination or inquiry.

I've opened an average of 33 investigative files a year since my appointment. Over the years, the number of published investigative reports has remained fairly constant. I have issued a total of 25 examination reports under the act and seven inquiry reports under the members' code.

The reports on my examinations under the act and inquiries under the members' code have explored important issues such as gifts, post-employment, fundraising, and preferential treatment. In a number of reports, I commented on practices that were not covered by the act and the members' code when I felt it was appropriate to do so.

I believe that my investigation reports have an important educational role, and they can help to prevent contraventions of the act and the members' code.

In keeping with my obligations under the Parliament of Canada Act, I have issued two annual reports each year: one on the administration of the act and one on the administration of the members' code. I'm proud of these reports. They're very comprehensive, and they provide detailed information on my administration of both regimes. They are one method of maintaining a dialogue about my administration of the act and the members' code with members of Parliament and the broader public.

I've used my annual reports to highlight particular issues and challenges under the heading “Matters of Note”. In my last annual report under the act, for example, I discussed political fundraising. The year before I wrote about gifts and other advantages. I also prepare and publish an annual list of sponsored travel under the members' code.

It's been an honour to serve as Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner over these past nine years, but there have been a number of challenges. Given that my title contains the word “ethics”, Canadians at times expect my office to be able to deal with any ethical issues, including those that go well beyond my jurisdiction and mandate.

Partisan political conduct is one example of this. I have suggested that the House of Commons consider implementing a separate set of rules in relation to partisan political contact for members and their staff. My experience has been that public office holders and members want to comply with the act and the members' code. Indeed, I found that the act and the members' code worked well overall. This doesn't mean that there's no room for improvement, and I've recommended a number of possible amendments to the act and the members' code in my annual reports, in my investigation reports, and in my submissions during parliamentary reviews of the two regimes.

I contributed to the one-time statutory review of the act. The recommendations that I submitted to the committee and those that I made elsewhere cover a number of priority areas. They recommend increasing transparency around gifts and other advantages; narrowing the act's overly broad prohibitions against engaging in outside activities and holding controlled assets; establishing some disclosure and public reporting requirements in relation to outside activities, recusals, and gifts for public office holders who are not reporting public office holders; addressing misinformation put into the public domain in relation to investigative work; extending the administrative monetary penalty provisions to cover clear breaches of the act's substantive provisions; strengthening its fundraising and post-employment provisions; and harmonizing the act and the members' code to ensure consistency of language and process where possible.

The review of the act did not result in any amendments, and the committee might wish to take up the study again in the future.

I participated in two reviews of the members' code, and many of my recommendations were reflected in subsequent amendments. These included lowering the disclosure threshold for gifts and prohibiting members who have made a complaint about another member from making the compliant public until I've received it and let the other member know about it, as well as the establishment of some deadlines for the completion of the initial compliance process and the annual review process. These were all very much appreciated.

I will conclude by reiterating that, despite any potential for improvement, the act and the members' code have, in large measure, done their job.

I take great pride in the contribution that I have made in administering the act since its inception and in administering the members' code. I would also like to acknowledge the support of my talented and hard-working staff.

Thank you again for inviting me to appear before you. I will now be happy to answer any questions you may have.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you very much, Madam Commissioner.

We'll now start our seven-minute round with Mr. Massé, please.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Commissioner, for being with us here today and for taking part in the committee's work. Like you, I also thank your staff. Preparing for an appearance before this committee involves a lot of work for them and for you.

I would like to hear about the achievements that gave you the greatest pride in your nine years as commissioner.

12:15 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I mentioned most of them earlier.

The strength of the organization is probably the most important one. I also worked very hard to promote a better understanding of the act and the code. I am very proud of my reports. I work very hard to examine all the aspects I have to consider in a complete and transparent way.

I have to follow many guidelines, pursuant to the act in particular. As to the code, it is a bit tricky because I have to get the approval of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs before establishing guidelines. I have, however, found ways of obtaining other information relating to the code.

In addition, there is a network of ethics commissioners right across Canada, and my office is at the centre of it in a way. I receive a great deal of information from each community. I think that makes the group of commissioners better. Those are some of my achievements.