Evidence of meeting #36 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was files.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
I share my colleague Mr. Long's general reaction to such a substantial increase that we're looking at in this supplemental estimate. I understand there has been an ongoing issue with the backlog of complaints. I'd just ask you to look at the bigger picture here and see what assurance you can give our committee that in the event that.... This committee adopted most of the recommendations that you brought to us in our study. We've recommended the order-making power. We sought in our study to try to address what had been described as systemic cultural failings within various departments and institutions of government around access. The very act of a complaint coming to your office suggests that there is at least someone out there who is unhappy with a response from another institution or government.
Our goal here, ultimately, is to shrink your department and shrink your office, to not have complaints, and to not have the necessity of the investigation of complaints. If this committee approves the additional money that you're looking for and you are able to hire additional personnel or keep additional personnel, as described, and deal with and address the backlog, then over time do you see us getting to the final goal, which is perhaps a smaller office, with fewer staff and less necessity for the work that your agency does?
12:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I certainly hope so. I do think that there is a necessity for independent and objective oversight of government's decisions on disclosure. I've always said that the main inefficiency in the system is that my office historically—and this dates back to 1983—has spent an inordinate amount of time on dealing with delay complaints. These are just about institutions not responding on time. That's over 35%—
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Then they go on to be unhappy about the length of time that their complaint takes to be dealt with.
12:45 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Well, those complaints we deal with fairly quickly. We don't have a lot of those in the inventory. It's very minimal, but it really does take a lot of resources in the office.
When people argue about what should be disclosed under an exemption of national security, I've always thought that it's a fair issue in the sense that a lot of these files are complex. To me, that's where the bulk of the office's work should always be. To have always 35% or so of our investigators dedicated to these delay files is a real waste. It's a waste in institutions as well, because their offices also have to deal with those once there is a complaint.
That would be the main game, if we had amendments dealing with timeliness, for instance. If we have order-making power, I don't anticipate that the delay complaints will be an issue at all. We obviously will be able to resolve these files very quickly. To me, that's the main issue.
In terms of the refusal files and exemption files, if we reduce it to just that in terms of what's coming in, then that would probably be a lot smaller.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
I hope that by approving, creating, or adding permanence to additional staff positions that we don't end up ultimately with a bigger office than we might need, but I see the necessity of at least getting to the point where we might have that as an issue.
In the interests of time, I'll give back my extra 22 seconds.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thank you very much.
I'll get back to the math. As I understand it, you are requesting roughly $3.3 million. You're suggesting that with that you'll be able to close an additional 1,061 files, which by my calculation works out to, on average, $3,160 per file. You say that you are able to close 1,300 files a year, and if we use that same math of $3,160 per complaint, that works out to $4.1 million or so in dealing with complaints, but your total budget is roughly $11.8 million. There's $4.1 million to resolve complaints, so what is the additional money being used for, and is there any sense of reallocating, then, just to clear up the backlog?
12:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Every reallocation that was possible in that office, believe me, has been made. I have said that before when we looked at budgets. I cannot reduce the finance department. I cannot reduce the IT folks. We are running on a shoestring in these areas. The balance between investigative and mandate work and internal services is about 78% to 22%. That's basically where we are. I've cut where I could.
On the amount of money in the new money, consultants cost a lot more than permanent employees. That was a constraint that was imposed on us, because this is temporary funding. If it were permanent funding, then we would have permanent employees, which would not cost the same amount of money as a consultant does in this market for access to information. The cost of the supplementary (B) funding is a lot higher in terms of how many people you can get for that money.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I have one follow-up question, and then I'm going to give my time over to Mr. Saini.
At $3,160 per complaint, it seems quite high to me, with my previous experience as a commercial litigation lawyer. These are paralegal files, at the end of the day, these privacy complaints. I find it odd that it would be so high. Is that consistent with the amounts we'd be looking at on a per-file basis at the provincial level? Are you aware of that?
12:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I don't know. I think we have to understand in terms of the additional money that there is money for rental, for IT, and for employee benefits, so that comes off.
12:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
But it's still very high. I agree with you. It would be less high if it were on a permanent basis rather than a temporary basis.
12:50 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
As to how compares in terms of files, I really don't know.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
It's nice to see you again. I have a quick question and I just want to get a broader understanding.
Obviously, the cases have been built over time, because there is a bit of a creep where, each year, cases are a little further behind. It seems to me that you are asking for this money as a one-time funding request so that these cases can be cleared, but your successor may face the same situation in a few years. To me, it seems that there is a bit of an ongoing structural issue, where you may not have enough employees or enough resources ongoing, as opposed to coming back every three or four years and saying, “Look, I have this backlog.” Is that something that you want to highlight or suggest in a way?
12:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
I've been saying this for years. The Privacy Commissioner's office has twice the budget that my office does. It has been an ongoing issue with the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada. If you read the first annual report of the first Information Commissioner, you'll see that she basically deals with some files and starts accumulating a backlog of files. That was the first year. It has been like that every single year since the office was started over 30 years ago.
What happened, though, was that we were making indents, as I said before, and then there was a combination of an increase in complaints and a reduction in budget. This has really compounded the problem, and that's quite unfortunate, but now these files are there, and they have to be dealt with.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
12:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
It is a stopgap measure. I think there is a certain logic to it, if there are going to be amendments to the legislation, to actually go through a regular process with new legislation to see what the appropriate funding would be, depending on what's in the legislation. I don't know what that is. This stopgap measure may need to be extended for another year if the legislation doesn't come through or is not coming into effect in the next fiscal year. That is certainly what we would be seeking at that time.
At the end of the day, what we do know is that this is actually working. We are actually making a difference, and it is reducing the inventory. I am quite enthusiastic about the fact that it is making a dent for the first time in a long time.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
My concern is not that you're not going to be effective with the money here, because I think you've shown that. Anytime you have a bump in resources, obviously you are going to be more effective. My concern is that, going forward, your successor may have the same difficulty in two, three, or four years, where there is a creep of cases that have not been resolved because of a lack of budget or a lack of resources. That's why I wanted to ask you that. That's the only question I have.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins
All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Saini.
I have nobody else on the list. We do have to actually adjudicate this.
Commissioner, we thank you very much for coming. I think the committee has taken it under advisement that should a legislative change happen that would significantly change the expectations of your department, an accompanying study of what budget would be appropriate to that legislative change.... It's taken under advisement. I think we'll have that discussion should the situation arise.
We thank you very much for your time and appreciate your patience.
12:55 p.m.
Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Thank you.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins
Colleagues, I need a volunteer. Who is going to be here tomorrow after question period?