Evidence of meeting #57 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigations.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Sandy Tremblay  Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Charles Dutrisac  Director of Finance and Acting Chief Financial Officer, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Karen Shepherd  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Okay. I tried, Commissioner.

5:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

I want to talk quickly about this. We've talked before with you, as well as with some of the other offices, about combining the offices. Again, I'll pile on the commendations that it's been great to work with you in the last 10 years or so, and commend you for your public service, but I do want to take the opportunity, with you being here, to get, perhaps for the last time, your final word on whether or not the offices should be combined. I know you've done some analysis on this to look at sharing administrative functions, sharing office space, and so on and so forth. To your mind, does that have potential for savings or not?

5:25 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

If you're talking about my office and the ethics office, which I believe are the two offices that have been suggested, I'm not sure that I see savings in finances, to be honest with you, for my office. We're lean as it is.

I have said before the committee that I think, where there are overlaps, the two offices could work better together in terms of maybe setting up an MOU or looking at, if it can't be established under the two, legislative changes. I've seen it work well in the City of Toronto with the two equivalent offices.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Provincially, there are some examples of that.

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

The City of Toronto has had it working quite well. Prior to 2004, the two offices were together, but there was a court case that found that because the two roles were under one regime, there was institutional bias, so in merging them, that's something that would have to be looked at.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you, Mr. Jeneroux.

Mr. Dubourg, you have the floor for five minutes.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to acknowledge the witnesses.

Ms. Shepherd, you've been in your position since 2009. Congratulations on your mandate renewals.

In your brief, you wrote that, “since becoming commissioner, I have initiated 173 administrative reviews.”

If I understood correctly, since 2009, you've completed 173 administrative reviews. Is that accurate?

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I think there are many figures.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Yes, indeed.

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I opened 173 administrative review cases and sent 14 cases to the RCMP.

I also sent 10 investigation reports to Parliament regarding people who breached the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct.

I think about 73 exemption requests were made. Sorry, I meant 79 exemption requests.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Okay, thank you.

Since then, you've said that your budget has always stayed the same and that you're satisfied with the budget.

If your budget were higher, would you want to conduct more verifications?

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Yes, I may conduct more verifications.

If the budget were higher, I could conduct many more outreach activities. At this time, I always need to choose between activities, investigations and the development of the registry. The new person appointed commissioner will need to look at all this.

A higher budget, if possible, would be ideal.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Based on how the organization is presented, we see that each service has about seven employees.

You also said in your brief that you conducted so many outreach activities that the number of registrations increased.

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

For the verification service, what's your workload? How many lobbyist cases in total do you have in the inventory?

I see that you have seven people assigned to the registry. You also have people assigned to client service. You have seven people assigned to the verification service, so it's roughly the same.

5:30 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

In English, we refer to full-time equivalent employees, or FTEs.

The outreach activities, for example, take up much of my time. It's not as if I have seven employees.

I'm so proud and fortunate that I can rely on my team. I have only one senior communications officer. That's why I call myself fortunate. The senior communications officer accomplishes a great deal of work and shows considerable flexibility. I have two people who work on both policies and communications. It's a small team. Even my lawyer conducts outreach activities. It's really a team that works together.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

How long does it take to conduct an investigation? You have seven or eight investigators.

5:35 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I can't provide an exact number. It really depends on the complexity of the investigation or review. Sometimes, the availability of the people we want to interview affects the length of the investigation.

For an investigation, two things must be considered. In a conduct case, I have control over the process. If I must send the investigation to the RCMP, it may remain with the RCMP for several months, or even years. I think a few cases are currently with the RCMP.

Another point must be considered before establishing a report for Parliament. In the 10 cases I just mentioned, the act requires that I give a response time to the person. I give 30 days. In some instances, people have requested an extension, and I've accepted the request.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Okay.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you very much.

We're over five minutes, Mr. Dubourg.

We've gone a bit beyond the committee's sitting time, but we wanted to make sure that we got in the full rounds of questions.

Madam Commissioner, thank you very much. I'm sure this is going to be the last time you appear before this committee in your official capacity, much like the Ethics Commissioner, who was here before you.

I want to wish you all the best and thank you for your years of service. As I said to her, I'll say to you: it's not easy to be in the crucible of Ottawa in a high-profile position. You and your office have conducted yourselves in an admirable way.

5:35 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

We thank you for your years of service and wish you the best. We know that we can call upon you in the future and allow you much freer range, shall we say, to discuss some of the things that you'd like to discuss as you continue to guide future parliaments as we improve ourselves on a continual basis.

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we'll see all of you on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.