Evidence of meeting #75 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-58.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Legault  Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Nancy Bélanger  Deputy Commissioner, Legal Services and Public Affairs, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Next up, for seven minutes, is MP Cullen.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay, I'll pick up where we left off from Mr. Kent's questioning.

Is it your testimony that government departments are already beginning to apply Bill C-58 in the denial of information to Canadians?

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

We don't have to look to some imagined future to see what potential damage Bill C-58 could do in terms of access to information—

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

—we have it already happening.

Did you say one or two departments?

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Allison is here.

This is just beginning. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

We haven't even passed the law yet.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Exactly. Allison investigated a case, and I mentioned it in my special report. There is already a documented case of the institution simply refusing to process the request because it didn't meet the criteria of the new section 6.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Then the Canadian seeking this information has to file a formal complaint. Walk me through the process. They go to your office to complain, and they say, “Wait—they're tossing this out on a technicality that doesn't exist in law yet.”

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

It does not exist in law yet.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Okay, the signal has been sent.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

We were able to report on this complaint because it's completed, and we provided the information in our special report. I was just informed that another one came in last night under the same reasons. I've now seen complaints, but I don't know if requests are being denied by institutions on the basis of that section and I just haven't seen the complaints yet.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

It's sort of like having a business. They say that the bits of grumpy feedback you get represent only one-tenth of the number of people who are actually upset, because most people won't complain. In your experience, most people won't file a complaint.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

That's true.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

They won't go through the process. The number of people who are potentially being denied information that they are lawfully entitled to, because they are not being specific enough, has to be larger than the one you're seeing, just by experience.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I strongly suspect that it is, and I am very concerned about that.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Here is something I'm confused by. I'm looking at Minister Brison's statement when they were bringing this bill forward. He said, “we are extending the Access to Information Act to ministers' offices and to the Prime Minister's Office for the first time ever”.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Bill C-58 does not do that.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Oh, that's weird.

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I'll give you an example.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Why would he say such a thing?

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

You'll have to ask him that.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

We did.

What he is saying, and I want to pick up on that, is “Well, we're disclosing it. That's the same. We are going to disclose the briefing binders, the question period prep, and some of these other places. Isn't disclosure better than making it applicable? People don't have to go dig; we're just going to give it to them anyway.”

4:05 p.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

As I said, proactive disclosure in itself is fine. I have no issues with that. I have an issue if it's basically becoming an exclusion to the application of the Access to Information Act. I do not have oversight when the government actually applies exemptions to that proactively disclosed information.