Evidence of meeting #80 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
It would seem to an outsider that having to hire new staff would bring a certain inefficiency. It would take time to train auditors or respondents to get up to speed to respond to complaints. Has that been your experience?
4:10 p.m.
Layla Michaud
Yes. Actually I can talk about last year. We received $3.4 million and we were able to hire FTE government employees and consultants as well. Then we had to train them. We have a good training program. We had to mentor them. We have a good mentoring program as well. Our directors were really involved, so year after year we're learning from what we did the year before.
With the $1.8 million this year, we have already been able to hire consultants to help us to resolve complaints.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Do you measure by averaging complaint costs, unit costs? Is there an average cost to resolving a complaint?
4:10 p.m.
Layla Michaud
Yes. As you know, there are different ways to do costing. You can take your complete authority and divide by the number of complaints, and it's going to give you a number. What you can do as well is look at direct cost for the program divided by the number of complaints, and you'll get another number.
We know that for administrative complaints, it's now costing us between $400 and $800 per complaint. Then we know that for exemption complaints.... It depends on the type of complaint. If you ask me how much, for example, the long gun registry investigation cost.... I don't have the number with me, but it was a really intensive investigation. Lawyers were hired externally. Some of our lawyers were involved as well. The commissioner was heavily involved in that investigation. It was a very expensive investigation.
It depends.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
In terms of managing the backlog, do you triage the complaints depending on the challenges and the number of human resources that might have to be applied—lawyers, or the commissioner herself?
4:10 p.m.
Layla Michaud
Yes. I'm a big believer in analytics and big data and so on. I'm always looking at our inventory. I'm always looking at the types of complaints we have. As well, we're using the capacity of our people. Some people are better at investigating missing records, so we're giving them missing records complaints. So yes, we're doing that. We're constantly looking at our inventory and we're trying to be as efficient as possible.
Another thing we're doing is interest-based negotiation, mediation. We're having numerous discussions with complainants. We're having discussions with departments. We're trying, without giving the information, because we cannot give the information...but if we see that the complainant, for example, is interested in one report of 25 pages, or even if there are 1,000 pages, we try to focus the complainant and the institution on just the 25 pages. It means that complainants are getting the information they're looking for more quickly, and for us, it's a win as well, because it reduces our workload, and it's the same for the department. I think it's a win-win-win. As much as possible, we're trying to do that. It's not always possible, but when it is, we're trying.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
How important—and I would think it would be very important—is the training of the respondents at the various departments and agencies in terms of preventing complaints—in other words, responding in a way that would minimize the number of complaints you have to process?
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
What we see with proactive disclosure, as an example, currently.... I was under the impression a few years ago, when there was more proactive disclosure, that the number of access requests would drop, and the number of complaints would drop, and so on, but that isn't the case. The trends show that yes, we're doing more proactive disclosure, but bottom line, Canadians are still looking to get information from their government. Hopefully, at one point, we will get no complaints. That would be super, but at present, it's not the case.
There is the duty-to-assist provision as well, where institutions can speak with requesters to see what they're looking at, and I know that some institutions are doing it really well. We're also trying to have that type of discussion as much as possible before beginning an investigation. It's helping a lot.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Is it right to conclude that you're getting more co-operation from some departments and agencies in the duty to assist?
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
Duty to assist between the department and the requester...? Yes, we're trying to collaborate with the department as much as possible. We all have our piece of the puzzle. We have different roles. At one point, we're in the same boat. We're trying to collaborate as much as possible. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
We heard from many witnesses that Bill C-58 was going to create problems in getting access to information from certain government agencies. If problems are created, complaints go up and the costs to your office also go up in trying to resolve these complaints. Is that a fair, logical extension?
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
We need to see the form that Bill C-58 is going to take at the end of the parliamentary process. A report was tabled by the commissioner, as you know. She was here before you a few weeks ago. Amendments were proposed by this committee. We're now at the third reading stage. We are analyzing the proposed amendments. When our analysis is done, the commissioner will comment further on Bill C-58.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I'll save you some time. The core pieces of the commissioner's analysis around not applying to the Prime Minister's Office or to the minister's office, all remained in the bill. They were not amended. Those amendments were proposed and rejected.
The President of the Treasury Board was in the House recently discussing this bill and suggested that proactive disclosure was going to solve many of the complaints and problems. You just said the opposite.
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
When we look at the trends, we see more and more proactive disclosure but the number of access requests does not decrease. Last year, I think 75,000 access requests were made to all the different departments. There is an increase year after year, and there is more proactive disclosure. At one point, are we going to achieve—I don't have the word in English—in French it's un équilibre? I don't know.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
It's equilibrium, balance, sure.
Did the government come to you at any point for a cost estimate of the impacts of Bill C-58 on your department?
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
No. We have not been consulted, not that I'm aware of.
4:15 p.m.
Layla Michaud
I'm the chief financial officer.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
In proposing this legislation, the government didn't approach you to ask if they brought this in, what would the cost impacts be on the Office of Access to Information.
4:20 p.m.
Layla Michaud
No.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Okay, so that's that. As I understand it, is it fair to say—I don't want to put words in your mouth—that your office has been chronically underfunded for a number of years?
4:20 p.m.
Layla Michaud
Yes, since Commissioner Legault has been there, we've made numerous....
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
How long ago was your most recent request for extra funding?
