Evidence of meeting #96 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was estonia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
I have one last question regarding identity theft.
The problem investigating a computer crime is knowing who is sitting on the chair and typing on the keyboard. With someone using a card, how can we be sure the one using the card is the right owner?
9:55 a.m.
Programme Director, National Cyber Security, e-Governance Academy
Of course it's a very good question, but there is no way to be 100% sure or identify the person. Our police use different techniques to solve cybercrimes. One part is the ID card, but of course the ID card itself doesn't give 100% certainty, so they have to use other techniques as well to investigate the cases.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Thank you, Mr. Picard.
I want to welcome back Mr. Cullen, a former member. You'll just have three minutes. It's nothing personal.
9:55 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
We have lots of time, but I just don't have lots of time. Is that what you're trying to say? I get it.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
We have until 10:45 a.m., so after Mr. Cullen's questions for three minutes, we're just going to open it up and go around the table.
Go ahead, Mr. Cullen.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I will be quick.
Thank you to the officials. I apologize that I missed the first part of your testimony, so forgive me if there's anything that I ask that you've already covered.
Let me start with a question. Are you able or prepared to answer questions about the electronic voting system that's used in Estonia? Can I assume it uses the same basic network and security system that you have for your e-card?
9:55 a.m.
Programme Director, National Cyber Security, e-Governance Academy
In general terms, yes, I am prepared to answer questions; if you go very specific, then of course I am not.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Beyond the specifics, I'm wondering about the recent revelations, not just about Facebook but about the fairly massive data breaches that we've seen globally. In the United States and also here in Canada, both so-called traditional companies and companies that were electronically based and experts in the field have failed to keep their data secure. These are entities with an enormous business profit incentive to do so. They include Uber, Yahoo, Target, Sony, the U.S. government, and the Canadian government.
To return to voting, there has been some criticism of the security of your voting system, particularly because, as we've heard in testimony at a different committee here, the ability to breach an electronic voting system and then cover your tracks, so to speak, is a serious threat to democratic nations.
With the involvement of other nations and other actors in domestic political affairs, what has Estonia done recently to make your electronic voting system more secure, so that elections are free and fair?
9:55 a.m.
Programme Director, National Cyber Security, e-Governance Academy
The recent development was that when I vote, after that I can.... For example, if I go to a computer, I can check whether or not my vote reached its destination. I can check that with my mobile phone. There are two ways to make sure that my vote went to the place it was supposed to.
Regarding the whole voting system and the security of the voting system, there are many different technologies and procedures that we use. I have to say that the critique is always welcome but not always very relevant.
For example, very often the critique is like somebody claiming that a candle on the table may cause a fire in the building. We all use candles, especially during Christmastime, and very rarely a fire happens after that. Of course, when you have an open fire on the table, there is always the potential for a fire.
Mostly the critique against the voting system is of the same kind. They claim that something might happen, but in reality we have not seen that. We have not had any incidents regarding the voting system. There is always supervision and control and there are different ways we do that. If we implement all of that, we can say that it is secure. Of course, potentially there's always something, always some trick.
10 a.m.
Senior Expert, e-Governance Academy
I was a member of a constitutional affairs committee when we made the basic decision to start Internet voting. Of course there were concerns, but the e-voting system is constantly upgraded to meet the different risks that may be there.
Basically, in the Estonian system there has been no case of some kind of breach or interference in the voting process, and because of that, Estonian citizens are using Internet voting more and more. There is trust already. Of course, it's always the case that technology may contain risks, but as I said, you need to be ready to meet these risks and not stop going ahead. That is my political view.
10 a.m.
Programme Director, National Cyber Security, e-Governance Academy
A very quick comment is that the voting system is not totally separate from what we have already talked about. It's still based on the ID cards, with a very good encryption system.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer
Thank you both.
Next up we're going to go for seven minutes or less. I'm sure that it will probably be less.
To start off, we have Mr. Kent on the list, Mr. Baylis, and Mr. Erskine-Smith. If you want to be added, we have approximately 40 minutes.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you, Chair. I just have one question, which follows on the last remarks about the voting system.
Have you any measure of public acceptance of the electronic data system as it has been put into practice and continues with occasional challenges here and there, like the reprogramming of the 750,000 certificates? Have you done any polling to gauge public acceptance of the system or satisfaction with the system?
10 a.m.
Senior Expert, e-Governance Academy
Generally, Estonians use the e-government system, and I think this is basic, because if there is no use of e-government to build it up....
About Internet voting, you can see from these slides that there is constant growth of the number of e-voters. We had local elections last autumn, and about one-third of those people who took part in the elections voted online. However, in Estonia, as I said, of course there are people who still oppose Internet voting, because there is no 100% insurance that nothing will go wrong. As you can see, it's part of the normal process in Estonia, but we can still choose what channel to use for voting.
In Estonia, people think it's good to have electronic governance, and the biggest concern is about how we are progressing. Are we able to meet all these new opportunities that technology will offer us, like artificial intelligence, for example?
10 a.m.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
How do you deal with the capabilities or the confidence that older generations might have, who are not fully engaged in the Internet or current technology?
10 a.m.
Senior Expert, e-Governance Academy
I think you are referring to my generation, because I'm also a very nice age.
10 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
10 a.m.
Senior Expert, e-Governance Academy
It's important to understand that the older generation can still learn and have new opportunities. In Estonia, the government also had several special programs to encourage the older generation to take part in the information society. The programs involved looking at the world and sending buses to different villages in Estonia and training older people to use computers, but I think our younger generation, being 100% online, can also provide good assistance to their grandparents.