Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 11th, 2020

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Shugart.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Mr. Poilievre, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Mr. Shugart, you testified at the finance committee that there is no evidence that anyone in the PMO had been in contact with WE in the lead-up to the announcement of this initiative. The chief of staff to the Prime Minister has since contradicted you and said that at least five members of the PMO were in contact with WE. Can you give us their names?

[Ian Shugart]

I don't have those names with me, Chair, and I wouldn't normally know. I think Ms. Telford made commitments to follow up on that.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

That's fair enough. Did anyone in the PMO communicate with anyone in PCO about WE in the period from the beginning of March until the contribution agreement was signed?

[Ian Shugart]

It is possible. I don't know the details of it. Particularly toward the end, the latter stages of the process, it is possible.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is it possible that they communicated about WE with the PCO prior to the May 8 recommendation that public servants provided the Prime Minister, that WE deliver the program?

[Ian Shugart]

In the form of discussions about the proposal as it was being developed, that is possible. PMO-to-PCO communication, that is possible.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Right, I think it is probable that we had political-to-public service communication before we got public service recommendations back to political.

[Ian Shugart]

Communication is not direction.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Well, that's what we're going to find out.

When did you first hear that WE was considered for this program?

[Ian Shugart]

As I indicated to the finance committee, I take the question, Chair, as a personal one. I became aware of this particular file in a fairly light way and toward the latter stages.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Do you have a date, just because we don't need to go—

[Ian Shugart]

I can't confirm if it was at the May 8 briefing.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Were you at that briefing? If I understand your answer earlier, you said you might have been there, but you might not have been, and you think you were, but you—

[Ian Shugart]

Sometimes I am at a briefing. I'm typically at a briefing of the Prime Minister before cabinet, but not always.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Were you at that one?

[Ian Shugart]

I suspect so, but I cannot be certain. I can check, if that's material.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Well, it's just that this is a particularly important cabinet briefing. It's the meeting at which the Prime Minister claims he first learned that WE was going to deliver this program.

[Ian Shugart]

I have examined the record and consulted with colleagues and confirmed that that is the case.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

But you don't know for sure if you were at the meeting.

[Ian Shugart]

I suspect that I was there for the briefing on May 8 and May 22, but I don't want, without being certain, to tell the committee definitively. I believe, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You believe you were at the meeting.

[Ian Shugart]

I suspect that I was there. If you want me to confirm with my calendar, then I will do that. I can be at a meeting with the Prime Minister and be called out of the meeting, so there's—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

This might have been one of those meetings that I wouldn't want to be at, and if I was there, I wouldn't want to remember it.